Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

The True Meaning of Luke 12.33 Disciples and Selling it all

Page 2 of 3 [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Do Christians have to sell everything to be true Christians???
Yes 22%  22%  [ 2 ]
Maybe 33%  33%  [ 3 ]
No. 44%  44%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 9

cyberdora
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2025
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,264
Location: Australia

05 Mar 2025, 5:18 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
The arguments for the "prosperity gospel" thing seem pretty thin to me. There's a small number of rich dudes in the New Testament who, it kind of insinuates, are good Christians, but it's not mentioned whether they got to heaven or not. And as you suggest, there's a lot of stuff in the NT that suggests more strongly that wealth is a bar to the kingdom of heaven. True, the OT has a lot about good people being rewarded with huge material wealth, but I thought the Jesus and the NT superceded that. In fact I don't quite understand why the OT wasn' ditched a long time ago, or at least heavily cut down to size.


With the exception of Ezekiel and Job, the rest of the cast of the OT aren't very "godly" folk. But sticking to the rich ones, quite clearly Solomon and David were blessed by god and happily lived as some of the wealthiest men on the planet. Perhaps god changed the entry requirements for entering his kingdom closer to the birth of his son and our saviour.



DoniiMann
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2010
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 586
Location: Tasmania

05 Mar 2025, 4:32 pm

Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

The problem with Prosperity Doctrine is the issue of '... there your heart will also be'.

Are prosperity churches getting rich to channel the cash into social outreach programs and evangelism... or to give their pastors fancy cars and mansions, and their churches bigger entertainment systems to suck in more donators? Are they encouraging their parishioners to get rich to enjoy the good life here, or to use it to do God's will?

The million dollars is no more impressive than the Widow's Mite in God's eyes. The widow was praised for giving her all. The rich were disparaged for giving out of their wealth and not even noticing the money was gone.

People prove where their hearts are by the direction their excuses travel.

Get rich all you want. That's not the point. Be sure you know what the point is... unless you're confident you can fool God.


_________________
assumption makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'mption'.


cyberdora
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2025
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,264
Location: Australia

05 Mar 2025, 4:58 pm

DoniiMann wrote:
People prove where their hearts are by the direction their excuses travel.

Get rich all you want. That's not the point. Be sure you know what the point is... unless you're confident you can fool God.


Very true - also we know, actions speak louder than words.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

12 Mar 2025, 8:53 pm

RachObi wrote:
I am not certain if I have this right. I would need to check with my rector at church.

I was though thinking of a similar passage a few days ago-Folow me, follow me and leave your homes and family and was wondering to distance ourselves from our family and I worked it out. This is very similar and in essence is the same thing. I checked the passage you mentioned today as well.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He didn't do away with many things in the Old Testament-he brought things to a conclusion. So, the passage I mentioned I was thinking about a few days ago-Jesus is not asking us to abadon our family but to put him and his mission above all else. His message is reflected again in the Beautidues he gave. I think the passage you are wondering about centrally we have to do our best still and put his mission above all things in our lives. If we can do this it is fulfiled. So we can do these things give alms with what can and do not be excessive. I don't think Jesus is asking us to be destitue leaving no money in the bank for how would we give alms donations etc.Jesus is not asking us to be homeless and do away with all our family sentimental items. We should not worship money and give generously/live modestly with what we have in essence and keeping with the values of Christ in the Beautitudes.

I am not a Bible expert but that is how I see it.

An example of this is this Saint-
Katherine is a Saint, she was not without money in life-she gave generously and loved and served her faith.
It may help to see you don't need to be destitute.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... ine-drexel


Whats a rector?



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 31,934
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Mar 2025, 2:26 am

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
RachObi wrote:
I am not certain if I have this right. I would need to check with my rector at church.

I was though thinking of a similar passage a few days ago-Folow me, follow me and leave your homes and family and was wondering to distance ourselves from our family and I worked it out. This is very similar and in essence is the same thing. I checked the passage you mentioned today as well.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He didn't do away with many things in the Old Testament-he brought things to a conclusion. So, the passage I mentioned I was thinking about a few days ago-Jesus is not asking us to abadon our family but to put him and his mission above all else. His message is reflected again in the Beautidues he gave. I think the passage you are wondering about centrally we have to do our best still and put his mission above all things in our lives. If we can do this it is fulfiled. So we can do these things give alms with what can and do not be excessive. I don't think Jesus is asking us to be destitue leaving no money in the bank for how would we give alms donations etc.Jesus is not asking us to be homeless and do away with all our family sentimental items. We should not worship money and give generously/live modestly with what we have in essence and keeping with the values of Christ in the Beautitudes.

I am not a Bible expert but that is how I see it.

An example of this is this Saint-
Katherine is a Saint, she was not without money in life-she gave generously and loved and served her faith.
It may help to see you don't need to be destitute.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... ine-drexel


Whats a rector?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rector_(ecclesiastical)

Quote:
A rector is, in an ecclesiastical sense, a cleric who functions as an administrative leader in some Christian denominations.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
I don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind is blowing.


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

13 Mar 2025, 3:45 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
RachObi wrote:
I am not certain if I have this right. I would need to check with my rector at church.

I was though thinking of a similar passage a few days ago-Folow me, follow me and leave your homes and family and was wondering to distance ourselves from our family and I worked it out. This is very similar and in essence is the same thing. I checked the passage you mentioned today as well.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He didn't do away with many things in the Old Testament-he brought things to a conclusion. So, the passage I mentioned I was thinking about a few days ago-Jesus is not asking us to abadon our family but to put him and his mission above all else. His message is reflected again in the Beautidues he gave. I think the passage you are wondering about centrally we have to do our best still and put his mission above all things in our lives. If we can do this it is fulfiled. So we can do these things give alms with what can and do not be excessive. I don't think Jesus is asking us to be destitue leaving no money in the bank for how would we give alms donations etc.Jesus is not asking us to be homeless and do away with all our family sentimental items. We should not worship money and give generously/live modestly with what we have in essence and keeping with the values of Christ in the Beautitudes.

I am not a Bible expert but that is how I see it.

An example of this is this Saint-
Katherine is a Saint, she was not without money in life-she gave generously and loved and served her faith.
It may help to see you don't need to be destitute.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... ine-drexel


Whats a rector?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rector_(ecclesiastical)

Quote:
A rector is, in an ecclesiastical sense, a cleric who functions as an administrative leader in some Christian denominations.

Thank you.



RachObi
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 26 May 2024
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 49
Location: UK

13 Mar 2025, 3:48 am

Hard to trust wikpedia.A rector is a church minister in the Anglican church. They are the spiritual leader of the church and have a Phd at least in this. They are the experts.

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
RachObi wrote:
I am not certain if I have this right. I would need to check with my rector at church.

I was though thinking of a similar passage a few days ago-Folow me, follow me and leave your homes and family and was wondering to distance ourselves from our family and I worked it out. This is very similar and in essence is the same thing. I checked the passage you mentioned today as well.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He didn't do away with many things in the Old Testament-he brought things to a conclusion. So, the passage I mentioned I was thinking about a few days ago-Jesus is not asking us to abadon our family but to put him and his mission above all else. His message is reflected again in the Beautidues he gave. I think the passage you are wondering about centrally we have to do our best still and put his mission above all things in our lives. If we can do this it is fulfiled. So we can do these things give alms with what can and do not be excessive. I don't think Jesus is asking us to be destitue leaving no money in the bank for how would we give alms donations etc.Jesus is not asking us to be homeless and do away with all our family sentimental items. We should not worship money and give generously/live modestly with what we have in essence and keeping with the values of Christ in the Beautitudes.

I am not a Bible expert but that is how I see it.

An example of this is this Saint-
Katherine is a Saint, she was not without money in life-she gave generously and loved and served her faith.
It may help to see you don't need to be destitute.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... ine-drexel


Whats a rector?


_________________
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit as an autistic
https://racheltestimony.blogspot.com


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

13 Mar 2025, 4:12 am

RachObi wrote:
Hard to trust wikpedia.A rector is a church minister in the Anglican church. They are the spiritual leader of the church and have a Phd at least in this. They are the experts.

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
RachObi wrote:
I am not certain if I have this right. I would need to check with my rector at church.

I was though thinking of a similar passage a few days ago-Folow me, follow me and leave your homes and family and was wondering to distance ourselves from our family and I worked it out. This is very similar and in essence is the same thing. I checked the passage you mentioned today as well.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He didn't do away with many things in the Old Testament-he brought things to a conclusion. So, the passage I mentioned I was thinking about a few days ago-Jesus is not asking us to abadon our family but to put him and his mission above all else. His message is reflected again in the Beautidues he gave. I think the passage you are wondering about centrally we have to do our best still and put his mission above all things in our lives. If we can do this it is fulfiled. So we can do these things give alms with what can and do not be excessive. I don't think Jesus is asking us to be destitue leaving no money in the bank for how would we give alms donations etc.Jesus is not asking us to be homeless and do away with all our family sentimental items. We should not worship money and give generously/live modestly with what we have in essence and keeping with the values of Christ in the Beautitudes.

I am not a Bible expert but that is how I see it.

An example of this is this Saint-
Katherine is a Saint, she was not without money in life-she gave generously and loved and served her faith.
It may help to see you don't need to be destitute.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... ine-drexel


Whats a rector?


Oh okay. Good to know.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

13 Mar 2025, 9:59 pm

Ya the Stone-Campbell Restorationist Movement was the forerunner of the modern ones. We were basically non-denominational before it was kool. The Restorationist Movement is made up of several denominations like the Disciples of Christ, the Christian Church, the church of Christ, the non institutional church of Christ, the International Church of Christ and the International Christian Church. The big non-denominational megachurches tend to be some flavor of Baptist in theology.

They will adopt the doctrine that gets them the most members and the most tax-exempt tithes and offerings. The Church of Christ and especially the non institutional Church of Christ is the complete opposite because they will have so many small and tiny churches that really value sound doctrine to the detriment of church and pastor finances. Most Church of Christ pastors cant have a living wage and good benefits like retirement and health insuarance partly due to this reason.There are very few wealthy Church of Christ pastors unlike the megachurch pastors.This post is in reply to you funeralxempire. Wrongplanet was messing up and would not let me quote.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:45 pm

cyberdora wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
At my old church we were taught to be multi-millionaires which seems contrary to what a church should be teaching its flock.My old church did not really teach members to be super rich.....


My 2 cents. the actual scriptures weren't meant to be prescriptive. Basic premise is not to dissimilar to Hindu/Buddhist Santana dharma. Christ is supposed to have said "its harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". Basically one who prioritises the accumulation of wealth is bound to the material world. So Jesus is saying "yeah, now worries, be rich, but good luck trying to get into heaven".


Oh okay I have always wondered what Jesus considered rich to be.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:46 pm

Honey69 wrote:
I remember when the Moonies sent young cult members out to beg for donations.

The Moonies eventually realized that this wasn't going to be very profitable. They eventually decided that it would be more profitable to encourage members to become professionals, so that they could collect more in the way of tithes and offerings. The Acts lifestyle just wasn't going to turn the leaders into jetsetters.

Such is the way of all religions.


I did not know that about the Moonies.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:47 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
There's also this in Luke:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

But people find loopholes. I've heard it argued that he was only testing the rich man's attitude to his wealth, rather than saying that everybody has to give it all away, and that you can be as loaded as Zuckerberg as long as you don't feel too attached to it.

The problem with scripture as I see it is that it isn't really a coherent and consistent set of practical rules. It's often vague and poetical rather than scientific and precise. If you look for inconsistencies, you'll find them. If you try hard enough to explain those inconsistencies away, you'll manage it. That's probably why we have so many different brands of Christianity, each one playing up some scriptural ideas and playing down others, but all of them working from and endorsing the same set of books. Interpretations differ.

Reasoning itself seems to be frowned on:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
But believers have tried to use such reasoning as the Watchmaker Analogy to deduce the existence of a creator, and if you forsake understanding, then when you hear scripture it will just go in one ear and out of the other.

At some point I think you have to just let the scrutiny of scripture go and feel your way through, do what you will and try to harm no one. I'm secular myself, but I especially can't imagine that if there was a heaven, it would be exclusively for the most expert theologians and Bible scholars.

Oh okay you right that there are so many different interpretations of Christianity.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
At some point I think you have to just let the scrutiny of scripture go and feel your way through, do what you will and try to harm no one. I'm secular myself, but I especially can't imagine that if there was a heaven, it would be exclusively for the most expert theologians and Bible scholars.




The Mormons were the correct answer.


What did you mean by that?



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:53 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
cyberdora wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
At my old church we were taught to be multi-millionaires which seems contrary to what a church should be teaching its flock.My old church did not really teach members to be super rich.....


My 2 cents. the actual scriptures weren't meant to be prescriptive. Basic premise is not to dissimilar to Hindu/Buddhist Santana dharma. Christ is supposed to have said "its harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". Basically one who prioritises the accumulation of wealth is bound to the material world. So Jesus is saying "yeah, now worries, be rich, but good luck trying to get into heaven".

The arguments for the "prosperity gospel" thing seem pretty thin to me. There's a small number of rich dudes in the New Testament who, it kind of insinuates, are good Christians, but it's not mentioned whether they got to heaven or not. And as you suggest, there's a lot of stuff in the NT that suggests more strongly that wealth is a bar to the kingdom of heaven. True, the OT has a lot about good people being rewarded with huge material wealth, but I thought the Jesus and the NT superceded that. In fact I don't quite understand why the OT wasn't ditched a long time ago, or at least heavily cut down to size.


Good points.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:55 pm

cyberdora wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
The arguments for the "prosperity gospel" thing seem pretty thin to me. There's a small number of rich dudes in the New Testament who, it kind of insinuates, are good Christians, but it's not mentioned whether they got to heaven or not. And as you suggest, there's a lot of stuff in the NT that suggests more strongly that wealth is a bar to the kingdom of heaven. True, the OT has a lot about good people being rewarded with huge material wealth, but I thought the Jesus and the NT superceded that. In fact I don't quite understand why the OT wasn' ditched a long time ago, or at least heavily cut down to size.


With the exception of Ezekiel and Job, the rest of the cast of the OT aren't very "godly" folk. But sticking to the rich ones, quite clearly Solomon and David were blessed by god and happily lived as some of the wealthiest men on the planet. Perhaps god changed the entry requirements for entering his kingdom closer to the birth of his son and our saviour.


I pretty much always thought it was more acceptable to be rich in God's eyes in Old Testament Times.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Texas

14 Mar 2025, 11:57 pm

DoniiMann wrote:
Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

The problem with Prosperity Doctrine is the issue of '... there your heart will also be'.

Are prosperity churches getting rich to channel the cash into social outreach programs and evangelism... or to give their pastors fancy cars and mansions, and their churches bigger entertainment systems to suck in more donators? Are they encouraging their parishioners to get rich to enjoy the good life here, or to use it to do God's will?

The million dollars is no more impressive than the Widow's Mite in God's eyes. The widow was praised for giving her all. The rich were disparaged for giving out of their wealth and not even noticing the money was gone.

People prove where their hearts are by the direction their excuses travel.

Get rich all you want. That's not the point. Be sure you know what the point is... unless you're confident you can fool God.

Well I do know that the International Church of Christ which required tithes and offerings allocated a lot of its money to evangelism.