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scumsuckingdouchebag
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30 Nov 2007, 5:53 pm

Depends upon the impact that energy has. In general, I agree with you.



Pandora
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09 Dec 2007, 6:24 am

monty wrote:
scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Our entire economic model is a ponzi scheme, and at one point, it will not be able to be sustained(Unless by some miracle, we discover a limitless energy source such as 'cold fusion'.



Limitless cheap energy is the most environmentally destructive thing I can think of (outside of global nuclear war). Our economic/ecologic problems will only be solved when we stop dreaming of all being emperors, and live within our financial and resource (ecologic) means.
Yep, that makes much sense to me.


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richardbenson
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09 Dec 2007, 1:04 pm

ive always kindof lived in poverty. so it doesnt really bother me if the economy goes to garbage



Johnnie
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09 Dec 2007, 1:46 pm

rushfanatic wrote:
I am really concerned about the economy here, with the price of everything going up, rate of foreclosures climbing, cost of gas and groceries, etc....anyone else feel anxiety, or are you financially able to look beyond this?We have always struggled paycheck to paycheck, would know of no other way around this,what does living comfortably feel like?


relax, Killary will save everyone :wink:

arizona passed an illegal worker bill and a federal Judge backed it up, so when more states put an end to the influx of illegal workers killing wages things will start to imporve.

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA

Comrade clinton caused the energy crises by raising taxes and making for a strong dollar which made for cheap oil, imports of oil doubled under his rain of terror on America. The tide is turning on energy consuption from peoples car buying habits to home building. General Electric and others are investing billions in alternate energy.

The big 3 probably sat on all sorts of research design work while they worked to break the back of the union, now that the auto contracts are done we might very well see 60 MPG turbo diesels. A Chevette got better mileage 30 years ago than most of todays cars. There is no reason we can't cut gasoline usage in half.

Sure the economy is likely to crash about a year after the elction and after a few years of pain America will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, the old guard will fight change because they are old and set in their ways, but until they are in real pain they won't let it happen.

the public school system is the biggest joke going and draining national resources away from everything else, it's totally disfunctional and will be killed off. health care will also change from a paperwork burdened system to more cost effective system
Advances in technoligy will reform both schools & health care delivery.

For many people the economy has already crashed, after the election it will most likely cream the upper middle class as corperate america gets desperate to keep profits up and shifts work from current locations and gives the boot to lots of high paid yuppies and hires kids fresh out of college in other locations for half the price to do the same work.

the new hot places will be where affordable housing is available so workers don't require such high wages and local economies aren't saddled with high taxes because of labor intensive government taxing the hell out of everyone to pay the government employee's high wages. Older parts of the country with no room to expand and built up government employee legacy costs will get creamed as people flee the high cost of living and doing business places for the countryside where living & doing business is a lot cheaper.

Do what uneducated mexicans figure out, move to someplace better. If they can figure it out, I'm sure everyone else can to.



monty
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09 Dec 2007, 1:54 pm

Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




The dollar has sunk like a rock. It will help some US companies that export. It also has led to a wave of foreigners coming in and buying up US assets on the cheap. Many of the wealthier, more sophisticated US investors have 'diversified' - ie, they moved their assets out of the US to avoid a 40% loss in value.

Since the Chinese Yuan does not float (the Chinese have it pegged to the dollar), Chinese exports are not any more expensive. Our trade deficit with China is not affected by this 'great' policy.

Oil imports are another big drag on the economy - this is not really changed by a weak dollar (if anything, the Saudis are withholding production so they get more of the less valuable dollars). And demand for oil is not perfectly elastic - at $3.00 a gallon, it doesnt' make sense for an American to sell their SUV at a loss or move closer to work.

Because the dollar's decline was largely triggered by debt, Americans have a greater liability to pay off this debt in the future; the current Federal debt per person is around $30,000. Just the interest on that is a burden that most citizens could do without.



Johnnie
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09 Dec 2007, 2:16 pm

monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




The dollar has sunk like a rock. It will help some US companies that export. It also has led to a wave of foreigners coming in and buying up US assets on the cheap.

Since the Chinese Yuan does not float (the Chinese have it pegged to the dollar), Chinese exports are not any more expensive. Our trade deficit with China is not affected by this 'great' policy.

Because the dollar's decline was largely triggered by debt, Americans have a greater liability to pay off this debt in the future; the current Federal debt per person is around $30,000. Just the interest on that is a burden that most citizens can do without.


They got the money from the policies of comrade clintoon.

http://www.economyincrisis.org/?content ... GgodQjpzAA

which federal debt ?

the $5 trillion out in T-bills or including the theft of the trust funds like sociela security which is massively under funded anyways along with government pension funds. The lower the dollar goes the more the debt gets devalued.

How long can china hold out taking our cheap dollar while using imported oil and other stuff to make us goods ? They have bills to pay also and are making lots of them building up their country. They have massive polution problems that they need to correct on top of all there other needs. The Yuan will float, The great president Bush is on top of the problem.



monty
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09 Dec 2007, 3:13 pm

Johnnie wrote:
The lower the dollar goes the more the debt gets devalued.


Quite true. And the lower the dollar goes, the more we devalue the earning power of the average American. We could tax Americans to subsidize our industry, or we can devalue the dollar to subsidize our export industry. Either way, there are a few winners, and many losers.

Redistribution by out-of-control government debt, devaluation, and inflation is no better than redistribution by excessive taxation.



sinsboldly
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10 Dec 2007, 12:28 am

monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




yessir, and you are going to line up for your job down at the factory, right Johnnie?



Cyanide
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10 Dec 2007, 3:57 am

sinsboldly wrote:
monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




yessir, and you are going to line up for your job down at the factory, right Johnnie?


If he doesn't, I will :lol:



sinsboldly
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10 Dec 2007, 9:58 am

Cyanide wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




yessir, and you are going to line up for your job down at the factory, right Johnnie?


If he doesn't, I will :lol:


alright! jobs for all of us! How much do you think they will pay? Will there be health benefits? an opportunity to contribute into a 401-K or some sort of pension? Will the Fedral Laws be enough or will a workers union be needed to collective bargain for a living wage and benefits and pensions for all? or is it an hour to hour job with pay for that hour and a pink slip lay off when they don't need your 'man'power any more?



pbcoll
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10 Dec 2007, 2:36 pm

monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




The dollar has sunk like a rock. It will help some US companies that export. It also has led to a wave of foreigners coming in and buying up US assets on the cheap. Many of the wealthier, more sophisticated US investors have 'diversified' - ie, they moved their assets out of the US to avoid a 40% loss in value.

Since the Chinese Yuan does not float (the Chinese have it pegged to the dollar), Chinese exports are not any more expensive. Our trade deficit with China is not affected by this 'great' policy.

Oil imports are another big drag on the economy - this is not really changed by a weak dollar (if anything, the Saudis are withholding production so they get more of the less valuable dollars). And demand for oil is not perfectly elastic - at $3.00 a gallon, it doesnt' make sense for an American to sell their SUV at a loss or move closer to work.

Because the dollar's decline was largely triggered by debt, Americans have a greater liability to pay off this debt in the future; the current Federal debt per person is around $30,000. Just the interest on that is a burden that most citizens could do without.


Can I just add that manufacturing capacity cannot be re-built overnight, hence for a while at leasta cheaper dollar just means more expensive imported manufactured goods. Even more importantly, the US is dependent on imported oil, it is partly the weaker dolar that drives nominal oil prices higher. The fact is that the large fall in the dollar's value has hardly made a dent in the trade deficit, i.e., the US economy has not shifted to replacing imports. And the US can't play hardball with the Chinese because you don't pick a fight with your banker when you're living on credit (Bush's policy has been to massively expand federal spending and cutting taxes by borrowing from China and Japan, leading to a large rise in the federal debt as a % of GDP - so no, it isn't being paid for by growth, and is hence an unsustainable policy, especially with the baby boomers about to retire). Largely, federal spending has mirrored that of a portion of US consumers: borrow like there is no tomorrow. The very fact that the debt becomes devalued makes it less attractive to lend to the US, hence more expensive for the government (and everyone else) to borrow from abroad - and there is no end in sight to US fiscal deficits funded bty borrowing from Asia.


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Johnnie
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10 Dec 2007, 9:10 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
monty wrote:
Johnnie wrote:

the GREAT president Bush has driven down the value of the dollar to slow the flood of imports and increase exports, so factory jobs will return to the USA




yessir, and you are going to line up for your job down at the factory, right Johnnie?


not me, I'm old and worn out. not cut out to be a machine operator anyways, but if you think that is all a factory offers this country, try thinking deeper to the whole supply chain and office work involved, for every machine operator all sorts of other jobs are created or lost as under comrade clintoon.