Capitalism, Socialism, & Jesus (split)

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Crookery can exist in business, but it can also exist in politics. I think the problem of people starving in countries like those in Africa is because they are run by corrupt dictators who rob from the people so they can live richly. Some of the worst corruption you will ever see can be found in socialist governments like China, North Korea, Cuba, etc.

As for voluntary charity, maybe people would give more if they didn't have so much taken from them in taxes. It is much more rewarding to give voluntarily than have your money taken and redistributed by force.

As for capitalism and christianity, consider that quote I posted in my last post which was taken from the new testament.

I can't remember where I heard this quote but it's something I heard that someone famous had once said and I agree with it: socialism is a system for saints and capitalism is a system for sinners.

The problems that communism and, in its much milder and much less iron-fisted for, socialism, fail on is their understanding of human nature. They're built on a naive theory of human nature and don't really take into account what happens when you implement these systems with people who are self-centered, biased for one reason or another, have their need to be competative with the next person, may feel the desire to just sit on their arse and be carried, etc.

When you get the types of conflicts of interest that you realistically get out of human nature and society in general, it really seems that capitalism is the only system that actually can roll with the punches. Why? Because its made by supply and demand. If people need something, it will be there. It gets the people who want to be working in a certain area in that area, constantly finehoning their skills, and competing to keep their jobs. That competition acts as a natural check to keep prices down and quality way up in many cases (utilities are I think the only place I've seen that fail in terms of breakdown maintenance sometimes). You also have the fact that industry is spurred to adapt and can adapt almost as quick as demand does. You do need checks on the big CEO's and CFO's, that's what Sarbanes Oxley was all about. If we can find the breakdown in the economic machine and fix it with new legislation, we're much better off than adding it to government.

When you have a cemented in system payed for by tax dollars, you have the people in that field operating with less in the way of checks on their professionalism, a lot more waste do to the fact that they don't have to be innovative and run lean, and that last part tends to degrade progress as well. While it may seem unfair that many people have to pay for healthcare if they aren't below the poverty line in the U.S., it's also true that we have the best hospitals in the world because again, that motivational pitchfork is held to professionals backs and keeps them doing the best job they can in many cases.

I agree that Capatilism will be around for a long time and is probably more effective than socialism due to man's greedy nature. LOL @ trying to fob off Africa's problems on their leaders. It is true that most of them are corrupt but there is no shortage of western companies sticking their fingers in the corruption pie. Same with Iraq, there are plenty of much cheaper, more local companies that will do the work but Bush is giving it to his cronies in Government's friends with their overinflated contracts, and then money dissapears. I dont see the difference between a theif and a local electricity company that is already doing well but raising their rates while old pensioners die in the winter. This s**t isnt what im going to fight for. Good luck to bankrobbers, good luck to the insurgency in Iraq and good luck to anyone who rebels against greedy pig western society.

So say I.

Psychlone, Jesus did not write the Bible. Many books of the Bible were written hundreds of years after Jesus died. They do not reflect what he taught.

Jesus taught us to have compassion for the poor, and that is not what today's religious right do. God told us not to murder, and Bush sends us to war!!

If there was no tax, they still wouldn't give, the selfish sods. Therefore, I see tax as a means of enforcing Jesus' will, because we are too damned stupid or greedy to do it volunteerily.

By the way, Jesus didn't have a carpentry shop - that was his father.

I've split this discussion off from the "what are your politcal tendancies" thread as it was taking on a life of it's own.

Sorry about the title, if anyone can come up with a better one, PM me.

Greed is a motive or incentive for a person to better himself. Under socialism there is no incentive, except for the whip and the threat of the gulag.



Mugabe (for example) has bulldozed the homes of the poor and seized the land of whites and killed the whites. He is the black equivalent of Hitler. You don't think his policies have more to do with the sorry shape his country is in than western companies?



I don't disagree with you here. I am not a fan of Bush or his war of imperialism.



I don't agree with the war either, but let's not cheer for the insurgency because our countrymen are over there being killed by them. Let's instead wish/pray for a speedy end to the war.

And how can you call yourself religious, if you support bankrobbers when the bible clearly says thou shalt not steal? Bankrobbers are greedy bastards who do not give the money to the poor either. They do it because they want to get rich. The people they are robbing is the old pensioners who have their money deposited there.

Since when has greed been good. How is a man bettering himself just because he becomes rich (often by dubious means). Quite frankly, I don't respect wealthy people. They are the scum of society.

Watch it comrade, or you'll be in the gulag yourself.

Since the bible is the only recorded account of what Jesus taught how can anyone possibly know what he really taught if the bible is inaccurate?



God also told us not to steal, and that is what the government does. Oh, but I thought you just said that the bible doesn't reflect what God/Jesus taught? Oh well then.



Jesus did not want his will to be enforced. You either do it voluntarily or you go to hell. Having it done by force defeats the purpose of his teachings. There is no compassion in force...

What you are saying is that politicians know better how to spend money than those who actually earned it. Do you have any idea how corrupt and incompetent politicians are?



Alright, then under socialism Joseph's carpentry shop would be seized by the government and Joseph, would be sent to the gulag. I don't think Jesus would have approved of that.

I don't think anyone can say whether or not Jesus was a socialist, but the people who killed him were definitely like the two most common types of modern day conservatives. The Romans glorified wealth and war. The Pharisees were religious fundamentalists.

Well, look at it this way... a "greedy" person might start a business to make a profit, which is not a bad thing in and of itself really. He does this because he wants to make money for himself, but in doing so he is providing goods and/or services which help people and if he employs people then he is providing jobs. So you see, greed can be a good thing even if you don't realize it at the time you are being greedy.

And there are also lots of wealthy people who give considerable amounts of their money to charity. Andrew Carnegie, for example, came from humble beginnings and he worked hard and became wealthy and gave alot to help society. If there was ever a rich person that got into heaven it would be him.

i think you'll find that gulags belong to communism, not socialism.

there's a rather big difference between the two.

That's a really scary (yet accurate) analogy, or maybe I just made an analogy in my head that you weren't hinting at?

You are using the same propaganda that Bush uses: socialism is bad because ............ and then give examples of something that has nothing to do with socialism.

Psychlone, do you know what Socialism actually is??

Perhaps you should read some of Karl Marx's works before you make a judgement.......

Perhaps you could stop licking GW's bottom and see some sense.

"Hey I'm the tax cut man. Unemployment is going sky high, schools are closing, teachers are getting laid off, professional airline pilots aren't being paid enough to feed their families, there has just been a disaster in New Orleans, and every 3 seconds an African kid is dying from Aids.
Yes, I'm the tax cut man, and when the rich thought they had it all, I was there to give them more."

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/taxcut.html


I think the elected government do know how to spend the nations money better than individuals do. Left to the tax cut man, he would not give anything to the poor. Tax is an essential means of making sure everyone has a decent standard of living. Ever since the Welfare State was created in the UK, living standards have shot up. You don't see kids living on the street these days. But in Victorian times, when there was ONLY private charity, there were kids living on the street, simply because private charity alone DOES NOT WORK.

Tax is a means in a democracy of the masses taking back some of what is theirs from the Elite who have stolen it from them under the guise of Capitalism.

Lol, cute, but nevermind the complete difference of context. Most modern day conservatives are just for small government, strong national security (glorifying self defense and what it takes, not war just for the sake of it), and I think the only area where the ideology is kind of annoying is pushing social beliefs to a point. A couple places where I differ - I think marijuana should be legal and I think gay marriage rights should be a state issue. Abortion - seems like you have to be impractically black and white on it for either side of the political fence, me being neither I just stay out of it.

As for fundamentalism though, take a look at places like Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. Its pretty clear that a lot of people in the U.S., Australia, etc. either have no idea what *real* fundamentalism is or just get their rocks off slinging hot words just for the emotional charge (nothing personal, I know lots of people who do it).

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 13 Sep 2005, 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

That was where I was going. It is terrifying.