Liberating Jesus from Christianity

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skafather84
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27 May 2008, 4:17 pm

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Odin wrote:

I respect Jesus as a great moral teacher the same way I respect Socrates, Buddha, and Lao-Tzi. They were all people, not gods or demi-gods, but they were very wise people.

Matthew 16:14-17:

Quote:

And they said, "Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets." He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

So, see, He said He was not just a "great moral teacher", as you put it,
or just a prophet like John the Baptist, Elijah, or Jeremiah.
No, he was God in the flesh.

because the bible is the absolute source for facts.

Among books written for mankind, yes, there is none with greater or more important facts.
It's why the printing press was invented,
and it's been the world's #1 bestseller since it was first published to the present age.

i blame the gideons for the sales records.

and if it were unadulterated, maybe it'd be a little more legitimate as a source of information on the christian history but there's been massive amounts of editing done to the book just from the aramaic translation to greek and latin rather less the translations from there.

and let's not forget "gnostic" gospels that were burned because it was a sect of christianity that wasn't popular with constantine's crowd.

Well, that's a seperate discussion, but all you're trying to do (at best) is to cast doubt, and say that we Christians
might not have what God wants us to be reading -- even though the Bible's 66 books are fully consistent throughout.
Do you know any other 66 books in human history by many authors that all perfectly agree?

the books don't even agree between KJV and NAB...i have no clue what you're talking about.

ouinon
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27 May 2008, 4:18 pm

Ragtime, I don't quite see where you found ammunition for your arguments against evolution in my post?

ouinon wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Okay. It works. Just I don't think that's what the guy in the film is talking about. I get the impression that he thinks Jesus actually existed in flesh and blood in Galilee betwen 00 and 33AD.

A whole lot of people believed Jesus existed in the flesh between 0 and 33AD.

That's your argument ? That a whole lot of people believe(d) it?

Quote:

It's not the nuttiest thing I've ever heard. I don't understand why anyone would want to deny His existence.

Those who knew it was a story , and would have thought it the opposite of useful for people on the spiritual path to think that Jesus was a historical figure.

The people who lived in the first century would probably have found it very odd/peculiar that so many people would end up believing that what was a narrative spiritual teaching tool, a character in a story for reaching greater understanding and enlightenment , had really existed.

It is a belief which has condemned Christian leaders to some of the most tortuous intellectual acrobatics in order to explain all the discrepancies which do not matter if it is a story.

Speckles
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27 May 2008, 4:31 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

Okay. It works. Just I don't think that's what the guy in the film is talking about. I get the impression that he thinks Jesus actually existed in flesh and blood in Galilee betwen 00 and 33AD.

A whole lot of people believed Jesus existed in the flesh between 0 and 33AD. It's not the nuttiest thing I've ever heard. I don't understand why anyone would want to deny His existence.

Actually, the dates 0 to 33AD are wrong. One, the Gregorian calendar doesn't have a year 0 - it goes directly from 1 BC to 1AD (Link). Two, no notable celestial events occurred in 1 BC or 1 AD; Chinese Astronomers kept meticulous records. (Link). The possible dates that Jesus could have been born in range from 8BC to 6AD (Link), but no one really knows for sure.

ouinon
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27 May 2008, 4:31 pm

So liberating Jesus from Christianity would in fact involve just that, removing the "historical figure" aspect of the character. ( Did the guy say that? I didn't listen to all of it). because that is what Christianity did to the character Jesus. Declared him a flesh and blood being.

Liberating J would be reviving the old understanding of Jesus as a much older archetype of sacrifice and resurrection and connection. None of this absurd historical literalism which has plagued Christianity for 1800 years.

That is already happening here and there in the neo-gnostic sects and related groups.

:study:

Last edited by ouinon on 27 May 2008, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Speckles
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27 May 2008, 4:37 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Umm, how exactly do the phrases "An eye for an eye" and "Turn the other cheek" agree? Two of the most famous quotes from the bible, and they couldn't be more contradictory.

Ragtime
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27 May 2008, 4:44 pm

skafather84 wrote:

i have no clue what you're talking about.

This has been apparent.

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Ragtime
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27 May 2008, 4:51 pm

Speckles wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Umm, how exactly do the phrases "An eye for an eye" and "Turn the other cheek" agree? Two of the most famous quotes from the bible, and they couldn't be more contradictory.

They are perfectly compatible.
The first is part of the ancient Jewish law that God handed down through Moses,
and the second is Jesus' symbolic illustration of how we should think and feel towards one another.
The first quote illistrates perfect justice for a crime,
while the second quote shows the attitude that we are supposed to have towards each other as followers of Christ.

God will ultimately judge everyone. If someone strikes you on the cheek without cause,
and you turn the other cheek, God will still judge the striker if he does not repent.

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skafather84
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27 May 2008, 5:08 pm

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

i have no clue what you're talking about.

This has been apparent.

it's mainly because you're spouting off gibberish.

Odin
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27 May 2008, 5:09 pm

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Odin wrote:

I respect Jesus as a great moral teacher the same way I respect Socrates, Buddha, and Lao-Tzi. They were all people, not gods or demi-gods, but they were very wise people.

Matthew 16:14-17:

Quote:

So, see, He said He was not just a "great moral teacher", as you put it,
or just a prophet like John the Baptist, Elijah, or Jeremiah.
No, he was God in the flesh.

because the bible is the absolute source for facts.

Gee, last I knew Jesus frowned on arrogance. :roll:

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DejaQ
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27 May 2008, 5:13 pm

I thought I remembered hearing that the Romans had records of Jesus' execution. Just throwing that out there.

slowmutant
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27 May 2008, 5:13 pm

Why is ouinon determined to discredit Jesus as a historical figure? I don't understand it.

Quatermass
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27 May 2008, 5:14 pm

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

because the bible is the absolute source for facts.

Shakespeare and Agatha Christie are probably better sellers than printers, so sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime sells better than the Bible.

If you didn't notice, skafather84 was being sarky.

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Quatermass
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27 May 2008, 5:17 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Why is ouinon determined to discredit Jesus as a historical figure? I don't understand it.

He's just dissociating Jesus from the Church, not from history. Jeez...

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skafather84
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27 May 2008, 5:20 pm

Quatermass wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

because the bible is the absolute source for facts.

he's also sarky enough to notice such things.

slowmutant
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27 May 2008, 5:21 pm

Yes, but WHY?

What's in it for ouinon? Why is it intolerable that Jesus be regarded as an actual historical person? If you "liberate" Jesus from the Bible, it implodes and becomes nonsense. Smells like a conspiracy to me ...

*shifty eyes*

skafather84
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27 May 2008, 5:26 pm

slowmutant wrote:

If you "liberate" Jesus from the Bible, it implodes and becomes nonsense.

maybe because it is nonsense. :roll:

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