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worsedale
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07 Nov 2005, 10:40 am

Sorry that last post was mine (worsedales). I really need to check who I am logged in as before typing :oops:



ajs_line_of_silver
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07 Nov 2005, 4:42 pm

neongrl wrote

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I believe in the biblical account of creation.


where do Dinosaurs fit in the bible? I must have mist that bit


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07 Nov 2005, 5:19 pm

They sure as hell aren't the creatures referred to as "Leviathan" or "Behemoth" either.


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mjs82
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07 Nov 2005, 10:28 pm

If the universe is 'infinite', you would assume that there would be starlight visible at every single point in the night sky. However, there is not, there's a lot of big dark gaps.



kevv729
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08 Nov 2005, 9:15 pm

Thagomizer wrote:
They sure as hell aren't the creatures referred to as "Leviathan" or "Behemoth" either.
Why not? They could be the dinosaurs. We may never truly know.


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09 Nov 2005, 2:04 am

Why not? Ignoring the fact that no human has ever seen a living dinosaur and unfortunately never will, here's why:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH711.html

Quote:
Claim CH711:

Behemoth, from Job 40:15-24, was a dinosaur. Job 40:17 says, "His tail sways like a cedar." Such tails only existed on dinosaurs.

Source:

Willis, Tom, 2000. Creationism (interview with Tom Willis), New Scientist (22 Apr.). http://www.jodkowski.pl/ek/TWillis002.html
Willis, Tom, 1997. Dinosaurs -- incredible new evidence of their VERY recent life. The CSA News (Nov/Dec.), http://www.csama.org/199711NL.HTM

Response:

1. There is no evidence to support such a claim. Fantastic creatures appear in folklore from all times and places. There is no reason to believe that the ancient Hebrews would be different.

2. The "tail like a cedar," which creationists think indicates a large dinosaur, is not even a real tail. "Tail" was used as a euphemism in the King James version. A more likely translation for the phrase is, "His penis stiffens like a cedar" (Mitchell 1987). The behemoth was probably a bull, and the cedar comparison referred to its virility.

References:

1. Mitchell, 1987. The Book of Job. San Francisco: North Point Press. Cited in R. T. Pennock, 1999, Tower of Babel, Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, p. 217.


http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH711_1.html

Quote:
Claim CH711.1:

Leviathan, described in Job 41 and mentioned in Psalms 104:26, describes a dinosaur like Parasaurolophus or Corythosaurus, or a plesiosaur such as Koronosaurus.

Source:
Gish, Duane, 1977. Dinosaurs: Those Terrible Lizards. El Cajon, CA: Master Books, pp. 30,51-55.
Gish, Duane, 1993. Dinosaurs by Design. Master Books.

Response:

1. Leviathan appears also in Ugaritic texts, where it is described as a twisting serpent (echoing language from Isa. 27:1) with seven heads. It personifies the waters of the primeval chaos. The rousing of Leviathan in Job 3:8 implies an undoing of the process of creation (Day 1992).

It has also been suggested that Leviathan was a crocodile or whale, but its multiple heads (referred to also in Ps. 74:14) make it clear that it is a fantastic creature, such as appear in folklore from all times and places.

2. Leviathan is clearly described as a sea creature in the Bible. Parasaurolophus and Corythosaurus were terrestrial.

3. The message of Job 41 is that part of nature is indomitable, that "no purpose of [God's] can be thwarted" (Job 42:2). That message would lose its meaning if Leviathan was an ordinary animal that humans would be able to kill. The larger message of Job is that God's ways cannot always be understood. That message is best served by leaving Leviathan mythical.

References:

1. Day, John, 1992. Leviathan. In David Noel Freedman (ed.), The Anchor Bible Dictionary, New York: Doubleday, vol 4, pp. 295-296.


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kevv729
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09 Nov 2005, 3:59 am

Thagomizer

You should maybe watch TBN (Trinity Braodcasting Network) sometime. Sometimes they have some good science shows.


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Bec
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09 Nov 2005, 1:23 pm

kevv729 wrote:
Thagomizer

You should maybe watch TBN (Trinity Braodcasting Network) sometime. Sometimes they have some good science shows.


I have seen TBN (multiple times, sadly), and no they don't. The 'science' shows are positively asinine.



kevv729
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09 Nov 2005, 5:39 pm

Bec

I think they prove their point good enough. Though I don't watch them very much. But what I have seen it is not to bad. Just remember science is just theory. Theory makes science.


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Bec
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09 Nov 2005, 7:20 pm

kevv729 wrote:
Just remember science is just theory. Theory makes science.


A theory is a set of related conclusions/hypotheses that have repeatedly been tested.

A theory is NOT an opinion, a speculation, or a possibility.



kevv729
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09 Nov 2005, 10:40 pm

It is what anybody whats to make it. Not everybody is scientific or religious either. Some people may even see beyond the science or religion, for that is how I try to see it myself. I willing to keep a open mind with all possibilities before me. Science and Religion maybe to closed for really any debate of any issues.


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kevv729
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12 Nov 2005, 6:26 am

So if the Universe was Created by a Big Bang how did it come to be out of nothing into something. Can Anybody answer this Question.


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12 Nov 2005, 6:56 am

I don't know how the universe came to be, but my kitty tells me he created it.


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fionaban
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21 Nov 2005, 6:51 pm

My quetion is what Created the Universe?
God Created The Universe
Or what could have Created the Universe?
haven't I Just said
Did it just happen or what?
yea God Created the Universe. if u wan't 2 know more Read the book of Gensis in the Bible and/or check out http://www.answersingenesis.org/


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VesicaPisces
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27 Jul 2006, 2:24 am

Assuming the Universe is infinite, every moment is a creation. This moment is beyond any doubt different than a moment 1 second ago. Considering this, every moment is a new Universe. A variation of a standing pattern. In an infinite Universe, if one waits long enough or walks far enough, one is bound to transverse an Earth with similar properties to our own.


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ladakh
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27 Jul 2006, 12:38 pm

The only way the universe can make sense to people within it is by analogy. Why? Because we are within and a part of the universe. This would be like asking "what is the shape of the universe?" which to answer fully, one must first leave this universe then turn around and look back which is impossible for us.

The clearest and simplest analogy that explains the universe is as a book. Each page of this book is a moment in time- a Planck Unit. One page one is the big bang and the last page is the Big Crunch, we are somewhere in the third chapter.

Of course we do not realize we are in a book because we are bound to the book- we are unable to "jump off the page and look around". We are like fish, who are unaware of the water until taken out of it.

Every page in the book is "one Planck Unit of time" and if you flip the pages fast enough (several trillion per second), you get the perception of time as we know it.

What makes this a coherent book is the logical progression of time. If time was not progressive, logical and causatic, the universe would be random chaos.

Time is duration; time is "a logical series of steps that occur... over time"; it's a predictability we can predict through knowledge.

Of course every book needs a book maker and a reader and this is where God comes in. God (in this analogy) is an old man sitting in his living room on a rocking chair reading this book called "our reality" by a fireplace.

God is both the author and the audience for this book and God also rewrites this universe as it unfurls- we call these miracles: things that cannot be logically explained yet are still real- the Big Bang is one of them.

God exists outside of our time in a seperate place- his living room. The one thing God can do that we never can is "inferring causality"- He can actually make stuff happen. "To make an apple pie from scratch, one must first create the universe."

As sentient beings, the best we can ever do is "take what's already around us and manipulate it for a predictable outcome"- we call this "doing stuff". God, however, really can make apple pies from scratch.

By inferring causality, God has the ability to touch any part of any page in the book and make any change He wants and the universe will rewrite itself around that change. (If God wanted you to have an older brother, he would simply flip back to nine months before He wanted your older brother to be born, make the change there, then flip back to "now" and there is your older brother.)

God does this as He sees fit to, but generally doesn't do this a lot- God does not micro-manage.

One last thought. There is a bookworm in the book- this is Jesus or Mohammed or Ghandi or whoever else you believe in. This is a seperate force acting under God's instruction to "give perspective to the universe". We cannot see the bookworm or the twisting hole he leaves within the book, we can only see glimpses of it in moments in time. But we can clearly see him over time, simply because this universe is logical.

What is the point to it all? In one sense, God is allowing the book to write itself: He made the setting and we're all living the life. When the book is fully written, there will be many different ways to read it. In another sense, the point of having a book in the first place is to have one definitive view of the universe. In that context, reality and time are simply the pursuit of excellence. When time is finished we can simply "watch the highlights" which would be a series of firsthand views of the universe through great people's eyes. Regardless of how you see it, one thing is certain- your being here was no accident- everything everywhere in the universe makes sense but us- it is our job to define the universe, or fail to do so.



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