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slowmutant
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16 Aug 2008, 11:25 am

No one here doubts your intelligence, Sand. Faith escapes you because you have so much doubt.



Sand
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16 Aug 2008, 12:20 pm

You're damned right I have so much doubt and any idiot who claims to know something that they do not know is due for one hell of an unpleasant surprise. Doubt is the pivot on which new understanding swings and a lack of doubt is directly proportional to a rejection to be prepared for all the unknown dangers that the universe is continuously sending us.



BokeKaeru
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17 Aug 2008, 3:55 am

I'm unclear on the details of the God I believe in. I was raised without a set religion, but exposure to various traditions, mythologies and the results thereof. However, I was given a sense that there was a purpose for me, a reason for things, as I grew up, and as I figured it, there couldn't be intentions without someone intending. What I believe so far is as follows:

-Who or what created and is directing the world exists and is a sentient being.
-He, she or it has an overall purpose or at least a reason for humanity's existence.
-He, she or it has a purpose or reason for my existence.
-He, she or it is at least one of the 3 omni's, though omnipotent is definitely not the only one, if it is the case at all.
-He, she or it has the capacity to see and hear individuals trying to communicate.

Beyond that, I'm still trying to figure things out. ^^;



Eggman
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17 Aug 2008, 4:22 am

I believe in God, and the big band and evoloution. I don't see God as being a male or female. I guess one of the reasons I believe is the elegance in the math of the universe that describes how things can interect. In some ways I see the Universe as like a game engine, od programmed in the physics engine, telling everything to have mass and how to interact, then press run. I suppose if God twaeked it now and then that would count as a miricle. I also don't see God as human shaped. or having particuallr one shape over another. Not sure what relgion thos whould count as.



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17 Aug 2008, 9:58 am

Eggman wrote:
I believe in God, and the big band and evoloution. I don't see God as being a male or female. I guess one of the reasons I believe is the elegance in the math of the universe that describes how things can interect. In some ways I see the Universe as like a game engine, od programmed in the physics engine, telling everything to have mass and how to interact, then press run. I suppose if God twaeked it now and then that would count as a miricle. I also don't see God as human shaped. or having particuallr one shape over another. Not sure what relgion thos whould count as.


Ever since I first heard of the Mandelbrot set, I've wondered how anyone could look at that and not believe in God.


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byrlawson
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17 Aug 2008, 12:19 pm

Come on, we do not have any reason to believe in a God or anything like that. Miracles do not happen (this is exactly why they are called miracles, btw), people do not rise from death, no one can turn water into wine and no one can walk over water. Do I really have to tell anyone? I might add that Santa Clause does not exist either and as such does not live at the North Pole, neither does he enter your house through a chimney.

There is no eternal life. People just die. Everyone. That is the end. To promise an alternative is wrong and to believe in it is foolish. The world (or, updated version: the universe) was not created in six days and there is a lot of evidence that humans are indeed related to apes.

Neither Hell nor Heaven exist. Those are stories created to scare little kids. How can any mature adult ever believe in that? Can someone just give me a valid reason? I hate to tell you but there is no final justice. Neither your or anyone else's life will turn out GOOD finally at the end and you will not receive a compensation for the bad things that happened to you, nor will you ever receive an explaination or, an even more ridiculous expectation, an excuse. Your wishes and expectations, your dreams and ideas are only important to you. Right, you can tell your parents when you are a kid.

The truth is that anything can happen to you, anytime. There is no reason behind those things and there is no reason why you are here. People you love can die and will die. The fact that you do not want them to die does not mean anything. The idea that you might die yourself one day does not mean anything either, you will certainly not be united with those of yours who died earlier. Why anyway? Because you wish so? Nobody is listening to your wishes. Try it if you do not believe my words.

There is no need to believe in someone who created something. There is sufficient evidence to show how chaos, evolution and related phenomenons can create most complex things. Right, you do not experiencec those things at work in your everyday life. They are there and their effectiveness and efficiency are tested and proven.

By the way: That you do not understand some things yourself does not mean that those are mysterious in general. There is no reason why the world and the universe should exist a way that is comprehensible for you. Why anyway? Because of you? You do not mean anything to the world or the universe. It will exist after you died and it existed long before you were born.

I welcome everyone to prove me wrong! Please do!



Eggman
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17 Aug 2008, 2:42 pm

You can not tell me I have no reason to believe. I don't care what you belive or dont. It's not my job to change minds. I believe in science and see no reason they are incompatible. And seeing the secrets of the universe unfold dosnt dimis what I think. But you can not tell me what reasons I have and do not have. Only I can tell me that.n Plus as I have said 1 I belive in a big bang, 2 I believe in evelotion 3. I believe in in a really old universe. Not believing in the words of one text of one religian as undisputed facts, doesn't mean I have no beliefs, and finding one wrong doesn't means all are wrong.



Eggman
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17 Aug 2008, 2:54 pm

Also Santa Clause did exist, he was real person. Just because his name got a bit warped and magical abilities got tagged to him over the centuries, doesn't make the man a myth.



kitty2
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17 Aug 2008, 3:04 pm

I don't believe in god, or gods. I don't do religion.



byrlawson
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17 Aug 2008, 3:06 pm

Eggman wrote:
Also Santa Clause did exist, he was real person. Just because his name got a bit warped and magical abilities got tagged to him over the centuries, doesn't make the man a myth.


Yes, I do not want to deny those facts. I see my posting offended you and I am sorry. Of course you can believe whatever you want to. However, I was relating to the "magical creature" Santa Clause the way this story is told to children today. I wanted to point out that telling children that were would be someone checking for them being good or bad who knows and sees everything they do is in fact a horrible thing to do.

My point is: Believing in the ideas I have written about is as reasonable or substantial as believing in a white-bearded man who brings a big bag filled with toys at christmas. I got the impression that Santa Clause and God are perceived as similiar "persons" by most kids. But while most adults (if not all) would deny believing in Santa Clause (not the historical person) some are willing to admit to believe in God, sin, hell and the devil.



slowmutant
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17 Aug 2008, 8:24 pm

byrlawson wrote:
Come on, we do not have any reason to believe in a God or anything like that. Miracles do not happen (this is exactly why they are called miracles, btw), people do not rise from death, no one can turn water into wine and no one can walk over water. Do I really have to tell anyone? I might add that Santa Clause does not exist either and as such does not live at the North Pole, neither does he enter your house through a chimney.

There is no eternal life. People just die. Everyone. That is the end. To promise an alternative is wrong and to believe in it is foolish. The world (or, updated version: the universe) was not created in six days and there is a lot of evidence that humans are indeed related to apes.

Neither Hell nor Heaven exist. Those are stories created to scare little kids. How can any mature adult ever believe in that? Can someone just give me a valid reason? I hate to tell you but there is no final justice. Neither your or anyone else's life will turn out GOOD finally at the end and you will not receive a compensation for the bad things that happened to you, nor will you ever receive an explaination or, an even more ridiculous expectation, an excuse. Your wishes and expectations, your dreams and ideas are only important to you. Right, you can tell your parents when you are a kid.

The truth is that anything can happen to you, anytime. There is no reason behind those things and there is no reason why you are here. People you love can die and will die. The fact that you do not want them to die does not mean anything. The idea that you might die yourself one day does not mean anything either, you will certainly not be united with those of yours who died earlier. Why anyway? Because you wish so? Nobody is listening to your wishes. Try it if you do not believe my words.

There is no need to believe in someone who created something. There is sufficient evidence to show how chaos, evolution and related phenomenons can create most complex things. Right, you do not experiencec those things at work in your everyday life. They are there and their effectiveness and efficiency are tested and proven.

By the way: That you do not understand some things yourself does not mean that those are mysterious in general. There is no reason why the world and the universe should exist a way that is comprehensible for you. Why anyway? Because of you? You do not mean anything to the world or the universe. It will exist after you died and it existed long before you were born.

I welcome everyone to prove me wrong! Please do!


It's not my place to prove you wrong. I will not attempt it.

But I'm curious as to how you came to such nihilism. :(



Eggman
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18 Aug 2008, 1:27 am

byrlawson wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Also Santa Clause did exist, he was real person. Just because his name got a bit warped and magical abilities got tagged to him over the centuries, doesn't make the man a myth.


Yes, I do not want to deny those facts. I see my posting offended you and I am sorry. Of course you can believe whatever you want to. However, I was relating to the "magical creature" Santa Clause the way this story is told to children today. I wanted to point out that telling children that were would be someone checking for them being good or bad who knows and sees everything they do is in fact a horrible thing to do.

My point is: Believing in the ideas I have written about is as reasonable or substantial as believing in a white-bearded man who brings a big bag filled with toys at christmas. I got the impression that Santa Clause and God are perceived as similiar "persons" by most kids. But while most adults (if not all) would deny believing in Santa Clause (not the historical person) some are willing to admit to believe in God, sin, hell and the devil.


It's ok, maybe I seemed a bit harsh as well. I guess what got me, was that anything that says One was incompatible with the other, in that If I believe in god, I must not beleieve in Evolution, or vise versa. Maybe I just found a way to intergrate them, or mayby I'm technically not a Christian. As with Santa, I think it does the real man injustuce by warping his deeds. ANyway, It dopesnt bother me wht people belive as long as they accept others and dont try to change them. In some ways I see the current image of Santa Clause a bit creepy,



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18 Aug 2008, 2:14 am

Although, like most people, I am not happy that religious enthusiasts try to persuade me to accept the huge amounts of nonsense that comprises much of religious belief, I must accept that the life of the intellect is deeply involved with persuasion and decisions about what is acceptable and what is not. Our whole commercial and political civilization is boiling with people trying to persuade others about the acceptability of their beliefs and I wonder why religion should be excluded from this ongoing social melee. In matters of life and death religion frequently plays a strong part in how people relate and I see no virtue in excluding this type of philosophical issue from the life of discussion as long as it is maintained on a civil level with regard to personal integrity. Complaints that certain areas should be excepted from discussion borders on censorship and I find this totally unacceptable.



byrlawson
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18 Aug 2008, 7:25 am

slowmutant wrote:
It's not my place to prove you wrong. I will not attempt it.

But I'm curious as to how you came to such nihilism. :(


Do not worry. As soon as I am looking for false comfort by stories making promises never held or answers that do not answer any question at all I will begin telling you.

By the way, I am not nihilistic. I can watch the world, the people living here and I can read as many books as I like. Neither do I need to believe in anything, nor do I need faith. I got a brain to think with, I can make decisions and I trust my own judgement. Yes, I make mistakes and I can be wrong.

I can find support by other people and solidarity without being requried to commit myself to any cult and without following any rituals. Religions draw their powers from the promise to defeat dead and by promising to deliver an explaination for the inexplainable. This cannot be right. People have to live with unanswered questions, with the knowledge that everyone is going to die some day and have to accept that certainty is never found in life.

Religion achieves its effects by inverting the nature of life. The only certain thing, the simple truth that death is neither avoidable nor reversible is declared "untrue" by mystical means while everything that is naturally uncertain is promised to gain certainty. Marriages break, crimes are committed, priests commit crimes against children, wars are lead, won and lost and much more. None of those things are shocking to me or to you: Everyone knows that this is what life is like and everyone knows that God is not throwing lightning at someone who molested and killed little girls.

Living a good life does not protect anyone from suffering, everyone can get hit by an incurable disease, little kids as well as old people. Faith provides absolutely no means in the case that one gets ill. Only proper medical treatment can do that, sometimes. We see that religion is more important for the poor, for the starving, for the ill and for the old people. Right: The poor are still poor and most likely will ever be, the starving are not fed by their believes, the ill are not cured and the old people still die. Of course they do: Nobody is really surprised by those facts, we all know that this what life is like.



slowmutant
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18 Aug 2008, 7:30 am

You make a few good points. But do you believe in anything at all, or is "believe" a null word for you?



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18 Aug 2008, 7:56 am

slowmutant wrote:
You make a few good points. But do you believe in anything at all, or is "believe" a null word for you?


I am afraid that in your mindset I really do not "believe" in anything. I consider a few things evident or obvious but none of those have been hammered into my mind by constant repetition while I was a little child. By the way: There is a difference between education and indoctrination. Education is based on asking questions and getting answers.

One thing I "believe" in is that a society or culture that is trusting the people to think and decide for themselves is a better one than a cultic club that is threatening with eternal torture in case of "sin" or failure.

I do not "believe" that people need to be confronted with continous fear to make the right decisions. I consider it obvious that people are prevented from stealing by the idea that they do not want to be victims of theft themselves and therefor agree not to steal the goods of others. I consider it further obvious that people easily agree not to kill others because they see that a society where people kill each other frequently would be a horrible place to live. Yes, I generally trust the people.

Do you?