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Malsane
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17 Aug 2008, 3:30 am

Sand wrote:
Why not leave it as an unknown until we have better information?
QFT
Awesomelyglorious did a great job of covering this, but I feel I must give it a shot as well.

1. God uniquely accounts for the physical universe's beginning.
God does not uniquely account for the start of the universe. I've heard some ideas about causality being different at the infinitesimal level. Perhaps the universe started itself, because the laws of causality function differently on different levels. Or, just to bring up this point that's been bothering me, the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. Look, another account of creation, that can fit just as well as God. I think Chuck Norris fits even better. As has been said, this is a God in the Gaps idea. We don't know for sure how the universe started, therefore it was God. I refuse to label my ignorance 'God.' That would make me a bad scientist, and a bad theist.

2. God uniquely accounts for the order, complexity, and design evident in the universe.
A) Design evident in the universe? You're kidding, right? I don't understand why people see it as the universe being perfectly made for us. We are perfectly made for the universe. If the laws of the universe were different, we'd be sitting here as totally different species, adapted to that environment. Or we wouldn't be here at all, life just may not have evolved here.
B) The universe does have amazing order, that is actually evident. But order does not imply design. We just live in an ordered universe. If I want to know why the laws of physics work, I'd go learn some theoretical physics. As it is, I don't care so much about why the world is ordered, I care more about how the world is ordered, and learning the laws of the universe to understand it better.
C) Complexity is ironically very simple. Evolution accounts for biodiversity and complexity marvelously. That, and it's been proven, which makes it a little more credible than God. Life became complex because it was advantageous. It worked, so it survived, and reproduced. Another mutation came along, it was adaptive, and that gene thrived in the pool. Evolution is a fascinating subject, and a small blurb on a forum will never do it justice.
So no design. Evolution.

3. God uniquely accounts for the reality of objective ethical values.
No really, you must be joking this time. This must be sarcasm, right? Objective morals? Morals vary hugely from time periods and cultures. Getting people to agree on morals is nigh impossible. Common morals, like not killing people in the streets, are likely found because anyone without a predisposition to not kill people in the streets (we are a social species, we depend on each other) would not survive to reproduce. Although, sometimes we do find these people. They are psychopaths. This argument is nonsense. Unless you can find me a moral held by all humans, this argument has no legs.

4. God uniquely accounts for the enigma of man.
Enigma of man? Really? Unless it can be shown that good and evil exist, this argument is at the very least borderline nonsensical. How can humans create such beauty and wonder, yet reap such vast devastation? Causality. If you just look at the causality, you'll find the answer. That sort of question can be answered by psychology. Lucifer effect anyone?

5. God uniquely accounts for the claims, character, and credentials of Jesus Christ.
No. Just no. The claims, character, and credentials of Jesus Christ aren't verified, so we need not account for them. But, even if we take the stories for true, God is not the only answer, or even the best answer. Primitive peoples didn't understand how the world works, and shrouded events in mysticism and mystery unnecessarily. The stories are figurative. The authors were delusional. It's a work of fiction. See, there's plenty of answers that could be.

However, one thing I noticed about this that uniquely annoyed me was the video's insistence that God uniquely answers these questions. They did this without even exploring the atheist side. Leaving alone for a moment the fact that the video sets up a false dichotomy between atheists and Christians (there's many more than two ideas, and there's no such thing as 'atheist doctrine,' so getting every atheist to agree on something is harder than getting every Asian to agree on something, because they don't really have much in common, just disbelief/lack of belief in deities) they don't even explore the other side! "Here's the Christian side, it makes sense, moving on." Is that really reasonable? To make a conclusion on who's right without even looking at the opposing arguments? I think not.



slowmutant
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17 Aug 2008, 7:26 am

A propaganda video, really good for division of people and inciting hatred. :thumright:

Is it possible to address this debate w/o such an incendiary approach? Obviously nobody wants their minds changed here, so why not just drive the wedge in further and further?



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17 Aug 2008, 7:53 am

You're right, Slowmutant.
And for me a new word 'incendiary'.
The topic has that sort of risk to it. Yes.

Best of luck to you all
Ceesjan



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17 Aug 2008, 8:34 am

*shrugs* It is, after all, a "wedge issue."



Malsane
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17 Aug 2008, 12:46 pm

Slowmutant is right. Although, I'm willing to change my position on religion, I'll just need to see a good argument for it. I guess I shan't get into a tizzy over propaganda.



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01 Sep 2008, 2:54 pm

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
Gautama Buddha, 563-483 BCE

time for some Buddhist propaganda (with no incendiary intentions) ;p



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01 Sep 2008, 5:25 pm

anna-banana wrote:
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

Do not believe in anything simply because you read it on internet forums ;)

I agree, except for the Buddhism stuff, as it would also belong to the 'Do not believe' list.


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anna-banana
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02 Sep 2008, 6:49 am

greenblue wrote:
I agree, except for the Buddhism stuff, as it would also belong to the 'Do not believe' list.


there's nothing to believe in Buddhism, you can reject belief in reincarnation and all the other stuff and still be a Buddist.



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03 Sep 2008, 9:53 pm

Buddhism is not a system of beliefs, but a practical method for life.



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08 Sep 2008, 4:55 pm

Remember that Unified Field Theory which Einstein said would reduce every equation in the universe into a single theory? God is that single theory. God is that one thing, that one force, that one essence which holds together everything together. If nothing else, He is that.

Note: I am not a physics expert.



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08 Sep 2008, 9:21 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Remember that Unified Field Theory which Einstein said would reduce every equation in the universe into a single theory? God is that single theory. God is that one thing, that one force, that one essence which holds together everything together. If nothing else, He is that.

Note: I am not a physics expert.


You sound like a pantheist. :)


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08 Sep 2008, 9:28 pm

Postperson wrote:
but god doesn't want everybody. some people are excess to requirements.


No. God wants anyone He can get. He wants our souls for His own and not for them to be sucked up by the Devil. God is choosy about who He lets into the Kingdom, but Old Scratch has a door that's always open and no questions asked. Much easier to get into hell than it heaven.



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08 Sep 2008, 9:55 pm

anna-banana wrote:
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
Gautama Buddha, 563-483 BCE

Meh. Why should truth be beneficial?


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08 Sep 2008, 10:19 pm

slowmutant wrote:
No. God wants anyone He can get. He wants our souls for His own and not for them to be sucked up by the Devil. God is choosy about who He lets into the Kingdom, but Old Scratch has a door that's always open and no questions asked. Much easier to get into hell than it heaven.


I would prefer neither of them. I'm looking forward to finding out.


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08 Sep 2008, 10:23 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Remember that Unified Field Theory which Einstein said would reduce every equation in the universe into a single theory? God is that single theory. God is that one thing, that one force, that one essence which holds together everything together. If nothing else, He is that.

Note: I am not a physics expert.


You sound like a pantheist. :)


As a Christian, I'm a monotheist. :doh:



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13 Sep 2008, 5:23 am

Saying that the whole world is God is not so much to convey any profound wisdom about the nature of God, as it is to enrich our language with one more superfluous synonym for "world".


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