Caught in the crossfire...

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18 Aug 2008, 8:52 pm

^Excellent post, Toad. In the end, I still say it is up to God to make that judgment, and I can't claim to guarantee or deny anyone a place in heaven based on what they do or don't believe.

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ToadOfSteel
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18 Aug 2008, 8:55 pm

Orwell wrote:

In the end, I still say it is up to God to make that judgment, and I can't claim to guarantee or deny anyone a place in heaven based on what they do or don't believe.

Oh, yes, definitely. I wasn't trying to make any judgements with that post. I just can't see a God that so loved the world damning 9/10's of it just because they don't explicitly believe in Him...

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18 Aug 2008, 9:10 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

claire333 wrote:

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Well I don't necessarily think that you are automatically good by default. Everyone is born good by default, but if you don't lead a good and honest life, it can become corrupted. Leading a "good and honest" life doesn't necessarily mean being tied to a particular religion. For example, I would think that Gandhi led such a life.

I do my best to lead a good and honest life. I appreciate the fact you did not point out, my good and honest life will not get me into your heaven due to my lack of faith in your savior. You currently have stereotype protection from me.

To answer that common misconception, I'm going to pull out my Bible (Matt. 25:34-40):

the Gospel of Matthew wrote:

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?'

And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'

The point I hear from that passage basically says nothing about explicitly saying that you have to believe in Him in order to be admitted into the Kingdom. And indeed, the righteous don't even realize that by helping fellow humans that are in need like that, they are actually performing acts in the name of Jesus, and therefore implicitly believe in Him (or at the very least His teachings).

I'm sure the fundies are going to muster everything they have against what I just said, since zealots always need to have an "Us and Them" mentality, since what I just said basically is only one interpretation of many, but I can hardly believe that otherwise righteous people like Gandhi would be damned to hell merely on a technicality. God loves humanity too much to just cast off people like that... otherwise, he would have let all of humanity die back during the Great Flood...

Yeah isn't there a name for this sort of thing. Western Humanism? I used to be like that, thought it was enough, but now I don't, I think you have to be full of faith.

I attended a Presbyterian church for a few years as a child, that was my only ongoing church experience and I didn't become a christian until I was about 40. I lean toward predestination so evangelism isn't my thing.

But on the general subject of the PPR forum, since the majority of members here are under 30 and have grown up in a largely secular world, I don't know that you would expect a high level of comment.

When I used to bother participating, I compared the rabid atheists to closet christians, in the sense that the most vehemently opposed are demonstrating a strong interest in matters of faith, so as banal and offensive as their level of comment may be, they're interested. I think I used to compare it to homophobia as well, in that the most vehement and loudest of opponents in that arena are very often found to be in denial of their true nature.

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18 Aug 2008, 9:22 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

I'm sure the fundies are going to muster everything they have against what I just said, since zealots always need to have an "Us and Them" mentality,

I grew up surrounded by this mentality and the explicit view of my only way to heaven being my acceptance of Christ as my one and only salvation and laying my sins upon him. I have been tempted to post in the thread titled 'The worst part of religion' but have not because the original post is a tongue in cheek barb obviously written to inspire the current arguements it now holds. If it were a legitimate question thread, I would have to have said the worst part of religion is the guilt. I have a teenage daughter who is currently the only member of my home who chooses to attend church. I see her surrounded by the same mentality. It bothers me but I keep my mouth shut and let her make her own choices.

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19 Aug 2008, 2:40 am

@ Orwell Thanks. Re evolution where do you put Gods influence in this? again I'm being curious not aggressive. (trouble with forums its easy to misconsture intent, mind you being firmly AS that is not hard for me) :wink:

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19 Aug 2008, 2:48 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

I say that Christians should be burned at the stake for insufferable evil! How dare they hold their views!! Reason dictates that Christianity is false, therefore the false should be destroyed!! !

What gives you that right? And what would you become after you've genocided every last one of us? Morally superior? I think not.

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19 Aug 2008, 2:56 am

Postperson wrote:

When I used to bother participating, I compared the rabid atheists to closet christians, in the sense that the most vehemently opposed are demonstrating a strong interest in matters of faith, so as banal and offensive as their level of comment may be, they're interested. I think I used to compare it to homophobia as well, in that the most vehement and loudest of opponents in that arena are very often found to be in denial of their true nature.

An interesting idea, I can come across as a fairly full on atheist but PPR has helped me refine my posistion to the one I put earlier in this thread. I have no truck with you folks its the fundies I dislike. With that out of the way, you could have a point but I wonder if fundie ahteists (FA's) want to become christian or is their position brought about by an instilled fear of God and therefore they have to prove themselves correct time after time to feel safe. Personally as much as I do not believe in God I was raised RC, taught by nuns and there is a little part of me that stays nervous. So put simply the consequences for being wrong on this one could be catastrophic so constant self assurance is needed.

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19 Aug 2008, 3:03 am

Quote:

The point I hear from that passage basically says nothing about explicitly saying that you have to believe in Him in order to be admitted into the Kingdom.

Looking for loopholes, are we? :lol:

Don't bother with this one. How can you have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour if you do not believe in the divinity of Christ to begin with? Obviously, you cannot. There can be no "sneaking in through the back door" when it comes to faith. Profess it proudly and publicly, or don't bother professing.

Last edited by slowmutant on 19 Aug 2008, 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Aug 2008, 3:05 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

'spose so yeah. I guess I have the luxury of feeling certain, so I don't feel strongly I need to defend or argue with anyone about it. I don't know that I worried before I was a christian, I think I felt I had grace or something and did the 'western humanist' thing, but I started to experience supernatural phenomena (this is where people start calling me crazy) and still do, so 'western humanism' didn't have any explanation for that (apart from 'crazy' or some type of brain malfunction) and that didn't fit, because I was and am, sane.

Last edited by Postperson on 19 Aug 2008, 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Aug 2008, 3:08 am

BTW it's "Christian" and not "christian."

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19 Aug 2008, 6:54 am

Who is JW?

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19 Aug 2008, 8:23 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Who is JW?

JW = John Woo

Orwell
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19 Aug 2008, 10:52 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

The Christian faith affirms that God is the creator- but it doesn't really go into specifics of how. The fact that something has a feasible naturalistic explanation doesn't mean God wasn't involved in it. After all, He created nature, the laws of physics, and the rest of it.

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19 Aug 2008, 10:56 am

slowmutant wrote:

What gives you that right? And what would you become after you've genocided every last one of us? Morally superior? I think not.

The right is given by the fact that I am right. I have purged the world of evil, of course I'd be morally superior!

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19 Aug 2008, 11:00 am

slowmutant wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Who is JW?

JW = John Woo

Hadn't heard of him.

So, where do I stand? I don't have any particular denomination I support in particular. I don't try to "shove religion down peoples' throats", but I do have little patience with people who go out of their way to be offensive and whatnot. If you throw me in the batch of "extreme" Christians, well, I don't care - that's what I want to be anyway.

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19 Aug 2008, 11:18 am

Orwell wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Yeah, I think there are some that believe that evolution takes God away, or that denies God's existence, few christians and few atheists may believe that, I am of the opinion that scientific theories of the origin of life and the origin of the universe, don't either confirm or deny God, in the scientific sense.

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