Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Evolution and the age of the earth (civilised debate)

Page 2 of 5 [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Psimulus
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Earth

30 Sep 2008, 8:53 pm

As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us. Eventually after trillions of years, many things seem repetitive. We have traveled through time, explored dimensions beyond our own, we may have even been reborn a few times just for fun within simulations. So some of us decide to try our hand at the greatest game ever played. Life. We find, or build, a planet. Calculate all of the variables. And begin to design a program that will fulfill our goal. Planets of course are very different depending on many factors such as gravity, e.m.r., chemical composition, procession over time, etc. What is needed now is a program that will continue to operate even if we decide to leave the area for a few million years. So we design a program that has the ability to adapt based on its surrounding environment. Creation and Evolution are commutable.


_________________
The infinite Universe is the divine essence. We are of the Universe.


twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

30 Sep 2008, 8:55 pm

Psimulus wrote:
As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us.

In ten thousand years I heartily expect dysgenic fertility to have rendered the overall human population sufficiently stupid that that's not a worry.


_________________
* here for the nachos.


Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

30 Sep 2008, 8:58 pm

twoshots wrote:
A more interesting question is... is the theory of evolution falsifiable?

And, go.

Yes. If evidence emerged that showed the Earth could not be more than a few thousand years old as the YECs claim, then evolution would be disproved. Or if something changed in our knowledge of genetics and heredity, that could potentially become an issue for evolution. If Behe was ever able to find something that could realistically be called irreducibly complex, he would be able to argue that evolution must be false.

So yes, evolution is falsifiable.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Psimulus
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Earth

30 Sep 2008, 9:22 pm

Evolution is simply a change of state to a more complex state. Devolution would be reverting to a less complex state. Planets evolve, solar systems evolve, galaxies evolve. Of course these concepts are ones of our own creation. One could also argue that reverting to a less complex state is evolution dependent upon the mind state of the observer. Evolution can not be disproven, it is a natural progression of change over time.


_________________
The infinite Universe is the divine essence. We are of the Universe.


Last edited by Psimulus on 30 Sep 2008, 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phagocyte
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,757

30 Sep 2008, 9:23 pm

ascan wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
the moment you get creationists into the conversation...

And as this forum is dominated by Yanks, there are plenty of them about. Although considering recent events over there, I expect most are busy praying for a miracle.


DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT lump us all in together as one big pious group.

Orwell wrote:
There are tons of gaps in our knowledge; always will be. That doesn't disprove a theory, it just means we don't know everything there is to know.


I urge any anti-evolutionist to read Orwell's above quote before commenting, as it could save us a good deal of BS.


_________________
Un-ban Chever! Viva La Revolucion!


twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

30 Sep 2008, 9:28 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
ascan wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
the moment you get creationists into the conversation...

And as this forum is dominated by Yanks, there are plenty of them about. Although considering recent events over there, I expect most are busy praying for a miracle.


DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT lump us all in together as one big pious group.

Indeed, "Yankees" are by and large fairly sane. As Americans go.


_________________
* here for the nachos.


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

30 Sep 2008, 9:35 pm

Psimulus wrote:
As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us. Eventually after trillions of years, many things seem repetitive. We have traveled through time, explored dimensions beyond our own, we may have even been reborn a few times just for fun within simulations. So some of us decide to try our hand at the greatest game ever played. Life. We find, or build, a planet. Calculate all of the variables. And begin to design a program that will fulfill our goal. Planets of course are very different depending on many factors such as gravity, e.m.r., chemical composition, procession over time, etc. What is needed now is a program that will continue to operate even if we decide to leave the area for a few million years. So we design a program that has the ability to adapt based on its surrounding environment. Creation and Evolution are commutable.


To assume that humanity will more or less remain constant as a species is about as ludicrous as you can get. At best humanity has been around for a couple of million years which is a pitiful amount of time geologically. At the moment the atmospheric composition of the Earth is starting to change rapidly and if humans don't mutate to accommodate that they will have to adapt radically technologically which might hold for a few thousand years but natural physiological adaptation will no doubt also take place as humans find it useful to be able to live openly on their home planet. People living off planet will certainly evolve rather quickly into different species. Humans as we see them today are surely a very temporary phenomenon and when humans and machines start to intermingle biologically as we are starting to do now radical changes will occur even more rapidly.



twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

30 Sep 2008, 9:38 pm

Sand wrote:
Psimulus wrote:
As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us. Eventually after trillions of years, many things seem repetitive. We have traveled through time, explored dimensions beyond our own, we may have even been reborn a few times just for fun within simulations. So some of us decide to try our hand at the greatest game ever played. Life. We find, or build, a planet. Calculate all of the variables. And begin to design a program that will fulfill our goal. Planets of course are very different depending on many factors such as gravity, e.m.r., chemical composition, procession over time, etc. What is needed now is a program that will continue to operate even if we decide to leave the area for a few million years. So we design a program that has the ability to adapt based on its surrounding environment. Creation and Evolution are commutable.


To assume that humanity will more or less remain constant as a species is about as ludicrous as you can get. At best humanity has been around for a couple of million years which is a pitiful amount of time geologically. At the moment the atmospheric composition of the Earth is starting to change rapidly and if humans don't mutate to accommodate that they will have to adapt radically technologically which might hold for a few thousand years but natural physiological adaptation will no doubt also take place as humans find it useful to be able to live openly on their home planet.

Humans already inhabit climates ranging from, well, Baghdad to Svalbard. There hasn't been a speciation event yet.


_________________
* here for the nachos.


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

30 Sep 2008, 9:43 pm

twoshots wrote:
Sand wrote:
Psimulus wrote:
As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us. Eventually after trillions of years, many things seem repetitive. We have traveled through time, explored dimensions beyond our own, we may have even been reborn a few times just for fun within simulations. So some of us decide to try our hand at the greatest game ever played. Life. We find, or build, a planet. Calculate all of the variables. And begin to design a program that will fulfill our goal. Planets of course are very different depending on many factors such as gravity, e.m.r., chemical composition, procession over time, etc. What is needed now is a program that will continue to operate even if we decide to leave the area for a few million years. So we design a program that has the ability to adapt based on its surrounding environment. Creation and Evolution are commutable.


To assume that humanity will more or less remain constant as a species is about as ludicrous as you can get. At best humanity has been around for a couple of million years which is a pitiful amount of time geologically. At the moment the atmospheric composition of the Earth is starting to change rapidly and if humans don't mutate to accommodate that they will have to adapt radically technologically which might hold for a few thousand years but natural physiological adaptation will no doubt also take place as humans find it useful to be able to live openly on their home planet.

Humans already inhabit climates ranging from, well, Baghdad to Svalbard. There hasn't been a speciation event yet.



The different skin colors indicate a move in that direction. Also the sickle cell problem is an evolutionary adaption to malaria. Changes are continually taking place but not enough so far to create a special species. Our short life span of only a hundred years optimum gives us an extremely limited viewpoint.



Psimulus
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Earth

01 Oct 2008, 1:35 am

Sand wrote:
Psimulus wrote:
As a creator, I would create a species who possesses an inherent ability to evolve. Imagine 10,000 years from now when humanity may have crossed over the technological singularity, that as independent beings, we decide to explore the Universe around us. Eventually after trillions of years, many things seem repetitive. We have traveled through time, explored dimensions beyond our own, we may have even been reborn a few times just for fun within simulations. So some of us decide to try our hand at the greatest game ever played. Life. We find, or build, a planet. Calculate all of the variables. And begin to design a program that will fulfill our goal. Planets of course are very different depending on many factors such as gravity, e.m.r., chemical composition, procession over time, etc. What is needed now is a program that will continue to operate even if we decide to leave the area for a few million years. So we design a program that has the ability to adapt based on its surrounding environment. Creation and Evolution are commutable.


To assume that humanity will more or less remain constant as a species is about as ludicrous as you can get. At best humanity has been around for a couple of million years which is a pitiful amount of time geologically. At the moment the atmospheric composition of the Earth is starting to change rapidly and if humans don't mutate to accommodate that they will have to adapt radically technologically which might hold for a few thousand years but natural physiological adaptation will no doubt also take place as humans find it useful to be able to live openly on their home planet. People living off planet will certainly evolve rather quickly into different species. Humans as we see them today are surely a very temporary phenomenon and when humans and machines start to intermingle biologically as we are starting to do now radical changes will occur even more rapidly.


I never assumed that we will remain constant. I am also not assuming this is what you are implying I was assuming. I believe we are and will continue to evolve. As intelligent beings, our minds are evolving as we are discussing this topic.


_________________
The infinite Universe is the divine essence. We are of the Universe.


LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

01 Oct 2008, 2:34 am

a single fossil of a vertebrate fish (or any other vertebrate or other modern taxon) in a cambrian fossil layer would falsify the theory of evolution.

radioisotope dating that put the age of the earth in the thousands instead of the millions of years would falsify the theory of evolution.



Greyhound
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Apr 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,191
Location: Birmingham, UK

01 Oct 2008, 2:52 am

Phagocyte wrote:
Orwell wrote:
There are tons of gaps in our knowledge; always will be. That doesn't disprove a theory, it just means we don't know everything there is to know.


I urge any anti-evolutionist to read Orwell's above quote before commenting, as it could save us a good deal of BS.

I would like to point out that I did not say I wished to disprove evolution:
Greyhound wrote:
My aim [is] to show the faults and gaps in the theories

Greyhound wrote:
[and to] try to show in what ways the evidence for evolution and determining the age of the earth were incomplete.


_________________
I don't have Aspergers, I'm just socially inept

Dodgy circuitry! Diagnosed: Tourette syndrome. Suspected: auditory processing disorder, synaesthesia. Also: social and organisation problems. Heteroromantic asexual (though still exploring)


ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

01 Oct 2008, 3:51 am

Greyhound wrote:
I see the immature insults have already started. It's a pity really. I wanted a good stimulating debate...

You'll not get one, as I've yet to see anything forwarded by a creationist, or other of that ilk, that couldn't be shot to pieces by a 16 year old with a few GCSEs. However, if you, or anyone else, wishes to be relieved of your ignorance, there are plenty of scientifically-educated people here who could help you. Perhaps you'd be best to look at this as an educational experience, rather than a debate.



Greyhound
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Apr 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,191
Location: Birmingham, UK

01 Oct 2008, 3:55 am

ascan wrote:
Greyhound wrote:
I see the immature insults have already started. It's a pity really. I wanted a good stimulating debate...

You'll not get one, as I've yet to see anything forwarded by a creationist, or other of that ilk, that couldn't be shot to pieces by a 16 year old with a few GCSEs. However, if you, or anyone else, wishes to be relieved of your ignorance, there are plenty of scientifically-educated people here who could help you. Perhaps you'd be best to look at this as an educational experience, rather than a debate.

I've managed it before and it wasn't shot to pieces. 'Relieved of my ignorance' - you're taking it to a personal level which is what I don't want. I always thought the debate on the other forum was an exceptional one.


_________________
I don't have Aspergers, I'm just socially inept

Dodgy circuitry! Diagnosed: Tourette syndrome. Suspected: auditory processing disorder, synaesthesia. Also: social and organisation problems. Heteroromantic asexual (though still exploring)


ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

01 Oct 2008, 3:58 am

twoshots wrote:
A "Yankee" is someone who comes from the North to visit the South...

I used the term Yank. That's an American (anyone from Florida to Alaska), over here.



ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

01 Oct 2008, 4:09 am

Greyhound wrote:
I've managed it before and it wasn't shot to pieces...

Well, if you're arguing that the earth was formed a few thousand years ago, and that man was created in a puff of smoke by the Almighty, I'm sure someone will oblige.

Greyhound wrote:
'Relieved of my ignorance' - you're taking it to a personal level which is what I don't want...

No I'm not. I'm just telling it as it is. If you think there is any kind of decent debate to be had around this, then you're clearly ignorant as far as a basic scientific knowledge goes. Like I said, that's easily remedied, so all is not lost. Why not just present the areas you're unsure about, and let someone like LKL help you out?