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skafather84
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08 Dec 2008, 6:17 pm

anna-banana wrote:
Fnord wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
plus a minor miracle or two (such as regenerating somebody's missing limb).

What if God can't break his own laws of physics?

Then the person presenting him- or her-self as God is lying.

If God can bring people back from the dead and heal people of cancer, diabetes, or other terminal illnesses, then why do we never hear of God regenerating anyone's amputated legs? After all, there are plenty of potential candidates in America's V.A. hospitals, right?


lol that brings us to the good old paradox- could God create a stone so heavy that even he couldn't lift it? either way, God loses :wink:



god loses because it's only an idea and a failed one at that rife with plot holes and continuity errors. the idea of a supreme being just doesn't add up in this world other than in the minds of those who believe (ie, god is as real as john yossarian).


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Ambivalence
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08 Dec 2008, 6:28 pm

greenblue wrote:
What if God can't break his own laws of physics?


I think it's far more likely that He just doesn't want to, that from His perspective outside of time, everything has already happened according to the rules he set up (not any of that rubbish "thou shalt not eat red peppers on a Gruneday evening" nonsense, more like "verily one-point-six-ten-to-the-minus-nineteen thingummies soundeth like a good charge for an electron") and the mysterious free will stuff He sprinkled around to make things interesting.


Heh. Perhaps a convincing demonstration of Godhood could be rigged up by arranging for the stars above us on the galactic plane described a Pepsi logo, and the ones below us a Coke logo. Or spelling out rude messages in morse code in quasar-light from billions of years ago. Or, y'know, anything suitably gargantuan.


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claire-333
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08 Dec 2008, 8:12 pm

I think the more I images I see from universe, the more I think it is possible.
I think the more information I read concerning the possibility of alternate dimensions, the more I think it is all crap.
As for evidence...dunno...



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08 Dec 2008, 8:46 pm

No evidence can exist.

If it were miraculous, it would either be unbelievable or a puzzle, or would be so to future generations.

If it were not miraculous, it could easily be taken as an artifact of chance.

Thus, the notion that a deity could be proven is nonsensical, we can argue that certain facts or arguments point in favor of such a being, but few would be considered proof.



greenblue
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08 Dec 2008, 9:31 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
No evidence can exist.

If it were miraculous, it would either be unbelievable or a puzzle, or would be so to future generations.

If it were not miraculous, it could easily be taken as an artifact of chance.

Thus, the notion that a deity could be proven is nonsensical, we can argue that certain facts or arguments point in favor of such a being, but few would be considered proof.

I'm wondering if it's logically possible and valuable and how, to say that there is a formal proof of the existence of God basing it on deductive reasoning or by axioms when empirical evidence doesn't seem to exist, which it could differ from the christian god.


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Awesomelyglorious
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08 Dec 2008, 9:49 pm

greenblue wrote:
I'm wondering if it's logically possible and valuable and how, to say that there is a formal proof of the existence of God basing it on deductive reasoning or by axioms when empirical evidence doesn't seem to exist, which it could differ from the christian god.

Umm... the classic proofs of God exist, but the thing is that they are considered to be inconclusive arguments rather than irrefutable. In any case, I do not see a new proof emerging.



AlexandertheSolitary
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09 Dec 2008, 12:19 am

skafather84 wrote:
believers' criteria for god is that they exist. they don't need evidence or any reasonable proof. just their own existence justifies it to them.

religion is very much an ego driven endeavor like that.


I would say that both viewpoints (of course there are more than merely two alternative wordlviews contending here, but more later in the thread) interpret the evidence of history and known science in accordance with truth-propositions that have for their adherents all the weight of a priori statements. The results are sufficiently coherent in both cases to enable believers in these and numerous other world-views to make some degree of sense of their/our world, while maintaining a sense of wonder in the face of all that remains to be learnt.

It is disingenuous to disregard various historical attempts byZoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Muslims Sikhs, Hindus and other theists to search for evidence of God's existence; it would be truer to say that no "proof" or "disproof" would ever satisfy all people on whatever philosophical or religious side they may take their stance.


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countzarroff
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09 Dec 2008, 12:43 am

From a christian point of view

Okay, here's the real scoop with God. There is only archeological proof of God other than The Bible, there is no scientific data. Faith isn't knowledge it's instinct. You just have a feeling there's a big guy helping us out.

Why do we believe in God. God helps people like me who have goals and dreams keep our hopes going when times are bad. I don't think I could function in a life without God to help me keep moving.

The interesting question is, why do atheists give a s@#$ about what christian families think? Maybe the Republican Party gives off a bad vibe of them. I will say that they are very s#$%tty examples of real christians. They just do whatever the priest tells them to rather than actually reading the book. There are a lot of liberal christians out there that are tolerant and respectful toward everyone's opinions. I guess I'm trying to say that I don't hate athiests, just don't go becoming the counterpart to some of the religious nutcases out there.



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09 Dec 2008, 12:47 am

just_ben; I think I can sum up the primary difference in theists and atheists here pretty quick.

Atheist are mostly positivists, if its not tactile or can't be boiled in a test-tube or calculated with advanced algaebra (or quantified by a study) forget it. Both atheists and theists are willing to look into the negative as well in some ways but theists do it far more and both come to far different conclusions; atheists use their theories of the negative to reinforce their belief that only the positive exists and use Occam's Razor to shave anything off that seems superfluous. Theists look at the same facts atheists do but see far more depth of possibility in the negative (and if they're worth their salt they philosophize in ways that don't attack the positive but rather deal in broader context to place it in - they're trying to ultimately find out if there is a deeper paradigm and, due to natural inclinations, believe so themselves). They'd also argue that Occam's Razor and our perspective have nothing to do with anything aside from what we think and feel from moment to moment - that our thoughts don't create reality outward but that there is a real, tangible, 1 to 1 reality that we are ever probing for answers.



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09 Dec 2008, 3:36 am

For me to believe that 'god' created life, the universe and everything (sorry just had to get a HHGTTG reference in) I would need said god to show me how it was done.

Second option would require my death and as I have only just found out about AS and my life finally makes sense I am in no hurry to find out if heaven and hell exist. :D


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09 Dec 2008, 12:59 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
just_ben; I think I can sum up the primary difference in theists and atheists here pretty quick.

Atheist are mostly positivists, if its not tactile or can't be boiled in a test-tube or calculated with advanced algaebra (or quantified by a study) forget it. Both atheists and theists are willing to look into the negative as well in some ways but theists do it far more and both come to far different conclusions; atheists use their theories of the negative to reinforce their belief that only the positive exists and use Occam's Razor to shave anything off that seems superfluous. Theists look at the same facts atheists do but see far more depth of possibility in the negative (and if they're worth their salt they philosophize in ways that don't attack the positive but rather deal in broader context to place it in - they're trying to ultimately find out if there is a deeper paradigm and, due to natural inclinations, believe so themselves). They'd also argue that Occam's Razor and our perspective have nothing to do with anything aside from what we think and feel from moment to moment - that our thoughts don't create reality outward but that there is a real, tangible, 1 to 1 reality that we are ever probing for answers.



Oh, thank you.
So.... agree to disagree? Will that last a fortnight? :P


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09 Dec 2008, 1:07 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
For me to believe that 'god' created life, the universe and everything (sorry just had to get a HHGTTG reference in) I would need said god to show me how it was done.

He has. As we look around us God reveals Himself in many ways. The clues to how life, the universe, and everything were created are there for our interpretation and, someday hopefully, understanding.

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Second option would require my death and as I have only just found out about AS and my life finally makes sense I am in no hurry to find out if heaven and hell exist. :D

Just make sure you know where your towel is before you go, you hoopy frood.


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09 Dec 2008, 2:08 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Thus, the notion that a deity could be proven is nonsensical, we can argue that certain facts or arguments point in favor of such a being, but few would be considered proof.

I respectfully disagree.

If the Biblical Jesus suddenly appeared standing next to me, spoke to me directly, identified Himself, and healed all my afflictions (except for my Aspieness - it's not an affliction to me) right there on the spot, then I would call Him "My Lord, My King, and My Saviour" to His face.

If such a thing happened to you, would that be sufficent proof?

No, I'm not arguing for the existance of the Biblical Jesus, only offering what I consider could be sufficient evidence.



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09 Dec 2008, 2:10 pm

Orwell wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
For me to believe that 'god' created life, the universe and everything (sorry just had to get a HHGTTG reference in) I would need said god to show me how it was done.

He has. As we look around us God reveals Himself in many ways. The clues to how life, the universe, and everything were created are there for our interpretation and, someday hopefully, understanding.

I just really don't understand at all. You're saying he has, give an example please. And the second part appears to have nothing to do with God.



DentArthurDent
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09 Dec 2008, 2:46 pm

z0rp wrote:
I just really don't understand at all. You're saying he has, give an example please. And the second part appears to have nothing to do with God.


:lol: zOrp the second part was a referrence to Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy and was put there for the sake of humour. Orwell was refering to my original post about Life, the universe and everything which is the third book in the five part trilogy.

Ok Orwell, you believe that 'god' reveals 'himself' in many ways and that there are many clues, can you provide examples of this that do not have a sound scientific explanation.


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09 Dec 2008, 2:52 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Ok Orwell, you believe that 'god' reveals 'himself' in many ways and that there are many clues, can you provide examples of this that do not have a sound scientific explanation.

42. :P


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