Question for fellow atheists, and others if you like.

Page 2 of 2 [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Nachtus01
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 87
Location: Oregon, USA

17 Dec 2008, 9:16 am

This is a very interesting topic, one I myself have indulged in from time to time.
I think the answer became more clear to me when Dolly the Sheep was cloned.
She was her mother 100%. In every physical way, except...how could that be?
In order to be her mother, she would have to literally retake and experience every detail of her mothers life in the exact same fashion and in the exact same time line as her mother.
Rather than go into a long debate, because its 5 am here and I need to get some sleep, and because from what I have read, you all seem to be smart enough to fill in the blanks, heheh, I will just summarize right to the end point.
To do this we'll have to do some hypothesizing of course.
Lets assume that you were able to stop your self from aging for say, up to 30 years. Cloning is available, and used together, you can actually regrow a whole other, "you", right up to the age you are now, we'll say 36.
In order for this clone to be a perfect mirror image of you, and I mean in every way, it would have to experience every tiny minute detail of the life you lived, at all the moments that you had personally experienced them. This is not possible, but it is crucial to make it work. Yes, you could get this clone to be so similar that its "scary". But that isn't what makes him you.
We are defined not just by what we experience, but by when we experience them, and (more often than we realize it), other things around us that at the moment dont seem to be integral to the experience itself. But those "minute details" set the mood for the particular experience, like weather, background noise, some other unrelated event.
But it doesn't end there either.
How we react to a situation, is almost always based upon things we have already experienced. Not being able to recreate every minute detail of your life for your clone to experience at the exact times that you would have experienced them, therefor alters your clone, even if only slightly. This in turn, will alter any further experiences, again, even if only slightly, but from here out, further deviations to how the two of you will handle events will slowly grow larger, cause an even greater variation of the the, "two yous".
And that is what makes you, you. It is not the physical part, but the mental, emotional "stuff" that, while many might experience it, only you will react to it in the exact fashion that you do.
Hope that helps you some.


_________________
Being right isn't always fair, but being fair is always right!

http://asirony.blogspot.com/


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

17 Dec 2008, 10:48 am

I have lived quite a bit longer than anyone posting here (which does not qualify me as having any opinion superior to anybody else) and never had the slightest intimation of a soul. In my very personal opinion it is total nonsense. But one thing does bother me a great deal. Modern physical theory perceives time as a totality, like space. I have inquired at physics sites and received no answer to the question of why I feel myself in a specific moment that keeps changing. I have been told it is an illusion. There seems to be no physical answer to what is "now".



Legato
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 822

17 Dec 2008, 1:11 pm

Sand:
Now doesn't exist in the way we would normally think of it. Now is simply the state the energy of the universe is in, however it's always changing. Unless you could measure an amount of time that was infinitely small, you could never isolate a frame of time in which energy was not in movement. It is indeed a strange concept to ponder, as I have many a time before.

Nachtus01:
I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't think it quite hits my question, though that is most likely my failing, not anyone else's. This concept is intensely difficult for me to describe. I'm not really so much confused about what makes me so unique, so much as why THIS life is the one that I am experiencing. It's not that I feel this life isn't one that I'd want to experience, but how is it that I came to be this experience, as opposed to another experience, or no experience.

Even though the universe seems random at times, there's almost always a method behind the madness - a natural process for such things. Winds used to be thought of a random or the whims of gods - but we understand why they flow the direction they flow now. In fact, the winds cannot possibly flow any direction but the direction that they do, as they follow the laws of physics and nature. Therefore, what law of physics or nature makes this entity MY entity.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

17 Dec 2008, 1:31 pm

Legato wrote:
Sand:
Now doesn't exist in the way we would normally think of it. Now is simply the state the energy of the universe is in, however it's always changing. Unless you could measure an amount of time that was infinitely small, you could never isolate a frame of time in which energy was not in movement. It is indeed a strange concept to ponder, as I have many a time before.

.


But why do I experience it as very real?



ducasse
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jun 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 460

17 Dec 2008, 1:32 pm

I think this is the very root of why people are attracted to religion, & why they persist in it despite its myriad implausibilities, & the constant erosion of its domain by the advances of science & knowledge. The mere fact of consciousness is so strange, the sensation of living inside your skull & of being separate from the rest of the universe - & of thinking that strange despite never have known anything else - is so strange that it makes it seem that the universe can only have an explanation that revolves around us. But I guess consciousness is just a useful illusion - with benefits superfluous to requirements - produced by the chemical make-up of our brains.

I'm not quite sure that what the op is asking is anything more sensible than asking, why is that tree that tree rather than another one? or why is my car a toyota rather than a merc? & that it's just the addition of consciousness to the question that makes it seem mind-boggling.

Am I missing something?



skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

17 Dec 2008, 1:37 pm

Sand wrote:
I have lived quite a bit longer than anyone posting here (which does not qualify me as having any opinion superior to anybody else) and never had the slightest intimation of a soul. In my very personal opinion it is total nonsense. But one thing does bother me a great deal. Modern physical theory perceives time as a totality, like space. I have inquired at physics sites and received no answer to the question of why I feel myself in a specific moment that keeps changing. I have been told it is an illusion. There seems to be no physical answer to what is "now".


everyone thinks of time as a linear forward process but it's not. i still have trouble verbalizing it but it's not simply the hands moving...counting up or counting down. it's more like the summation of energy and movement (spent energy).

you experiencing instances is you seeing time as what it really is...the highest FPS experience you will ever have. existence is a series of moments and reactions all combining into motion combining into physical forms combining into eventually us.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


Potsic
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 8

17 Dec 2008, 2:58 pm

we are us because of some way of unbelievable luck, in my opinion. i think everyone is alike except literally just a different number of proteins in a gene or however that works. your you thanks to evolution and thats it. luck and for a soul i have an extremely difficult time believing that thanks to evolution again. the best thing i can believe in is reliving every moment we live though i thats hard to believe too cause then i think about all the countless individuals before us and even the cockoroaches who we genetically alike.



skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

17 Dec 2008, 3:01 pm

Potsic wrote:
we are us because of some way of unbelievable luck, in my opinion.



it's unbelievable luck because you're failing to grasp how large the timeline is and just how many false starts and failure to launches there may have been before this planet came about.

edit: 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 is a lot to us but not if you're around for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000....you know? it's all about chance and things finally meshing.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


Potsic
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 8

17 Dec 2008, 3:16 pm

by unbelievable luck i meant basically a 1 in infinity number, if you think about it if something in time happened maybe a second later most of us would never be born because everything would happen at a slightly altered time, we are us thanks to our parents having sex at just the right time and our little sperm swirling in just the right places, i think about this crap way too much



skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

17 Dec 2008, 3:18 pm

Potsic wrote:
by unbelievable luck i meant basically a 1 in infinity number, if you think about it if something in time happened maybe a second later most of us would never be born because everything would happen at a slightly altered time, we are us thanks to our parents having sex at just the right time and our little sperm swirling in just the right places, i think about this crap way too much



yeah but the odds aren't nearly close to approaching 1 in infinity even with all the variables. granted it's still a very large number but there's much larger out there.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


Nachtus01
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 87
Location: Oregon, USA

17 Dec 2008, 7:37 pm

Legato wrote:
Nachtus01:
I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't think it quite hits my question, though that is most likely my failing, not anyone else's. This concept is intensely difficult for me to describe. I'm not really so much confused about what makes me so unique, so much as why THIS life is the one that I am experiencing. It's not that I feel this life isn't one that I'd want to experience, but how is it that I came to be this experience, as opposed to another experience, or no experience.


You are correct, I did indeed misunderstand what you were asking for. And having reread, both what you originally wrote, and the above response, I can definitely see how this question is so hard to ask. There seem to be almost no end to what exactly you are trying to ask, hehehe.
So to clarify, you are trying to ask, why am I a person as opposed to a lion or a rock? Is that correct?


_________________
Being right isn't always fair, but being fair is always right!

http://asirony.blogspot.com/


Fraya
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,337

17 Dec 2008, 7:56 pm

One branch of Jainism believes there is only one soul that exists outside of time but is tied to and experiences the lives of every living and nonliving thing in sequence (subjectively linear but objectively jumping around through time and space).

In short every living and nonliving thing in the universe takes turns using the same soul so the person standing in front of you in the market check out line is YOU (the same soul) and at some point either before or after your current life you will live that persons life along with the lives of everyone (human or animal) you will ever meet.


_________________
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
-----------
"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane