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ikorack
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31 Mar 2009, 11:56 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Hypothetical question (for the moment anyway). Suppose a brilliant scientist creates life in his laboratory and this life is intelligent. After his Nobel prize ceremony, he demands that his newly created life forms bow down before him and worship him. Is this reasonable?


Ah for the moment does this mean you have big plans?



ruveyn
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01 Apr 2009, 12:13 am

To the original poster:

No it is not reasonable, but on the other hand the scientists creation is his -property- and he can treat it as he pleases. Laws pertaining to the protection of rights and forbidding cruelty to sentient beings only apply to natural sentient beings, not manufactured sentient beings.

If this hypothetical scientist killed his creature would he by guilty of murder? Under current law, no. Man made artificial sentient beings are not persons under current law. They have no rights (does a car built by you from the ground up have rights? Or a computer?).

Being unreasonable is not necessarily in breach of the law.

ruveyn



Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 12:28 am

ikorack wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Hypothetical question (for the moment anyway). Suppose a brilliant scientist creates life in his laboratory and this life is intelligent. After his Nobel prize ceremony, he demands that his newly created life forms bow down before him and worship him. Is this reasonable?


Ah for the moment does this mean you have big plans?


Creating artificial life is not entirely theoretical. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/sep/06/2

Nevertheless, a scientist with such a pitiful concept of his/her worth that would require a creation to be devoted to praise its creator is indeed an emotional cripple. At the present stage the best that probably be accomplished is a bit of self reproductive slime and any scientist tempted to imbue that with total respect and worship for the scientist is indeed well on the road to psychosis. As, of course, is God, if it requires the same type of silly adulation.



JetLag
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01 Apr 2009, 11:21 am

I think that the newly created life form probably would refuse to believe they even had such a creator. I imagine they would believe instead that all life in their little laboratory spontaneously evolved from a primordial soup billions of years ago after a big bang.


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Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 11:35 am

JetLag wrote:
I think that the newly created life form probably would refuse to believe they even had such a creator. I imagine they would believe instead that all life in their little laboratory spontaneously evolved from a primordial soup billions of years ago after a big bang.


Not much chance of that considering the multitudes in the world bowing and cowering in churches, mosques and synagogues as compared to the few who have even heard of the spontaneous generation of life much less accepting it.



sartresue
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01 Apr 2009, 11:39 am

Hyperthetical concepts topic

I was thinking along the lines that creators of life have this need to feel superior, as in it is just too tempting not to put a stumbling block before the blind. This may well be the reason for the creation by humans of the concept of an invisible creator, that is, worship something invisible in order to somehow deny that the notion that humans are superior when they create something. This may have been meant as a sort of compromise. If you have to have a religion, base it on an abstract concept creating us, to avoid the infinite regress that ruevyn suggests. "Let us get the notion of creation out of the way, then we can concentrate on more realistic here-and-now issues that are more important, and that no human is superior to any other."


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Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 11:43 am

sartresue wrote:
Hyperthetical concepts topic

I was thinking along the lines that creators of life have this need to feel superior, as in it is just too tempting not to put a stumbling block before the blind. This may well be the reason for the creation by humans of the concept of an invisible creator, that is, worship something invisible in order to somehow deny that the notion that humans are superior when they create something. This may have been meant as a sort of compromise. If you have to have a religion, base it on an abstract concept creating us, to avoid the infinite regress that ruevyn suggests. "Let us get the notion of creation out of the way, then we can concentrate on more realistic here-and-now issues that are more important, and that no human is superior to any other."


I admire the sentiment but there are lots of people superior to me and I really doubt an overall homogeneous quality to the whole species.



MG
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01 Apr 2009, 4:55 pm

Your comparing a scientist to God? God does not demand people to worship him, it is for the benefits of the humans not God himself. This analogy doesnt work too well.



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01 Apr 2009, 7:35 pm

Interestingly, by spending time on the internet, I've discovered a new law of human psychology: If someone wants to criticize a belief on grounds that it is intellectually flimsy, the fallacy of choice is the strawman.


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mmstick
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01 Apr 2009, 10:59 pm

MG wrote:
Your comparing a scientist to God? God does not demand people to worship him, it is for the benefits of the humans not God himself. This analogy doesnt work too well.


Exactly xD.


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Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 11:08 pm

mmstick wrote:
MG wrote:
Your comparing a scientist to God? God does not demand people to worship him, it is for the benefits of the humans not God himself. This analogy doesnt work too well.


Exactly xD.


I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

7 you shall have no other gods before me.

8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.



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01 Apr 2009, 11:08 pm

mmstick wrote:
MG wrote:
Your comparing a scientist to God? God does not demand people to worship him, it is for the benefits of the humans not God himself. This analogy doesnt work too well.

Exactly xD.

For a moment, I agreed, but something reminded me of Matthew 4:8-11, which reads:

Matthew, the Tax Collector wrote:
[8] Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

[9] and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”

[10] Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”

This refers back to Deuteronomy 6:13, which reads:

Moses allegedly wrote:
[13] You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name.

There are Biblical passages that command people to worship God, but nothing about God's own voice from the heavens commanding, "Worship me!"

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.



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02 Apr 2009, 12:12 am

^Fnord, I'm not following you.

Back to Tallysman's original question, I doubt he indeed created life. Prove it to my amoebian mind!! ! :twisted:


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02 Apr 2009, 12:17 am

The closest incidence was through the Miller Urey Experiment, in which inorganic materials were transformed into amino acids (thus organic compounds). No true life was created but the building blocks were formed through this experiment that simulated the conditions of early Earth.



TallyMan
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02 Apr 2009, 2:48 pm

Magnus wrote:
Back to Tallysman's original question, I doubt he indeed created life. Prove it to my amoebian mind!! ! :twisted:


Mischievous Magnus :shameonyou: :wink: The question was hypothetical so there is nothing to prove.

However, I would not be surprised if a scientist eventually creates life one way or another; I suspect it is just a matter of time. The arguments then would of course be "Yes, but is it really life?" :shrug: In the end it will come down to each persons definition of life.

If the life form is not organic based and is something like Data out of Start Trek then the argument is likely to rage for some time. In the end it would probably be a legal definition - e.g. robots marching and holding demonstrations demanding equal rights to humans. The law would take a position one way or another.


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Sand
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02 Apr 2009, 10:32 pm

One of the basic attributes accredited to life is the ability to reproduce. An intelligent robot may have many or nearly all the qualities of an organic human but being a mechanical construct it has no ability to reproduce unless it is given the technical instruction to duplicate itself. Is this technical instruction the point of life creation?

The old Testament on the story of Adam and Eve speaks unspecifically of the knowledge conferred by the apple forbidden by God but the subsequent actions clearly indicate it involves the knowledge of sex and reproduction as it concerns nakedness and physical attraction. So it seems, in legend, that God was angry that mankind attained the godlike ability to produce new humans independent of God. The concern with sex which is a prime consideration of Christianity leaves no doubt that reproduction is somehow a thorn in the side of that religion and the concept of creating life independent of God is something of a horror to devout Christians. Nevertheless understanding the basics of DNA and RNA leads inevitably to a culmination in self reproduction although intelligent and aware life is an altogether different matter.