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Fnord
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31 Mar 2009, 2:06 pm

^ Agreed.

Changing enemies in mid-battle is never a formula for victory.



makuranososhi
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31 Mar 2009, 2:07 pm

It's a slippery slope...

Quote:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."


Replacing one loathing with another, however it is couched, is mere substitution and not change.


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Fnord
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31 Mar 2009, 2:12 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
It's a slippery slope...

Quote:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Replacing one loathing with another, however it is couched, is mere substitution and not change.
M.

The phrase "Re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" somehow springs to mind.

The "Young Left" club might do well to dwell on this before point its collective fingers at everyone else.



ascan
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31 Mar 2009, 2:25 pm

Henriksson wrote:
What do you think should be done against racism?

Nothing at all. Personally I'd like to see all race legislation repealed. You see, the concept of "racism" provides the last bastion of the real bigot. Rabid liberals can preach their hate with a clear conscience, and with no danger of a criminal conviction. It's become like a medieval witch hunt where an accusatory finger brings instant unthinking denunciation.



Fnord
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31 Mar 2009, 2:36 pm

^ Agreed.

Here in the States, we have several programs known collectively as "Affirmative Action," which refer too...

Wikipedia wrote:
... policies that take race, gender, or ethnicity into account in an attempt to promote equal opportunity. The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs (such as breast or prostate cancer screenings). The impetus towards affirmative action is twofold: to maximize the benefits of diversity in all levels of society, and to redress disadvantages due to overt, institutional, or involuntary discrimination.

At least, that's what they want us to believe, when in reality, it's all about awarding through entitlements (a.k.a., "handouts") educational and employment opportunities to anyone who is not a middle-aged, caucasian male, and denying those same benefits to those same middle-aged, caucasian males who would otherwise have earned them for themselves.

Affirmative Action programs denegrate the accomplishments of people who benefit because of their gender, cultural or social group rather than their qualifications. Affirmative Action programs also reduce the value of the accomplishments of all those who belong to the beneficiary groups - because of their gender, ethnicity, and/or cultural origins - thus making Affirmative Action programs counterproductive, and conducive to promoting the very inequities that they seek to eliminate.

It's bad enough when middle-aged, caucasian males receive benefits based solely on their gender and race; but doing the same thing for women and non-caucasians only serves to perpetuate the same evil, rather than eliminate it from our society.



claire-333
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31 Mar 2009, 5:30 pm

Hey. I am all for young people advocating racial tolerance to their peers, but you may think the feelings of threat from immigrants is based purely on racism, when much of it might just be protectionist views.



Bataar
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31 Mar 2009, 7:17 pm

I think it's important to first define racism. I stand by the belief that to be racist, one must believe that their race is superior to all others based only on race or that someone else's race is inferior based only upon race. Anything less isn't true racism. Making a comment based on a stereotype is not racist.



Fnord
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31 Mar 2009, 7:30 pm

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race.

Thus, invoking a race-based stereotype is a racist act; and the one commiting the racist act is, by definition, a racist.



history_of_psychiatry
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31 Mar 2009, 7:52 pm

The problem is that people like to group each other by every difference possible. Race, sex, religion, etc. And even those often have sub categories. The problem is that people always compare how different we all are than how similar we all are. Not to sound like a hippy or anything.


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twoshots
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31 Mar 2009, 8:08 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
TThe problem is that people always compare how different we all are than how similar we all are.

Weird but true: when you're trying to arrive at a classification a group of objects, it doesn't get you very far to look at the commonalities they all share.


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Bataar
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31 Mar 2009, 8:20 pm

Fnord wrote:
Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race.

Thus, invoking a race-based stereotype is a racist act; and the one commiting the racist act is, by definition, a racist.
Only if the person making the statement believes it to be true 100% and not something as simple as joke and also believe that their race is superior. For example, the most common racial stereotype I witness is that Asians drive slow or can't drive depending on how severe you want to make the statement. Around my town if you get behind someone driving 5 - 10 miles an hour below the speed limit, the odds are high that the driver will be Asian. If I make an off hand comment that Asians are bad drivers, it is a stereotypical comment and not a racist one. I don't believe my race is superior to any other, hell, I don't even believe that all Asians are bad drivers, I have/had Asian friends, etc so I don't consider myself racist at all when I make a comment like that out of strong irritation.



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01 Apr 2009, 10:18 am

Bataar wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race.

Thus, invoking a race-based stereotype is a racist act; and the one commiting the racist act is, by definition, a racist.
Only if the person making the statement believes it to be true 100% and not something as simple as joke and also believe that their race is superior. For example, the most common racial stereotype I witness is that Asians drive slow or can't drive depending on how severe you want to make the statement. Around my town if you get behind someone driving 5 - 10 miles an hour below the speed limit, the odds are high that the driver will be Asian. If I make an off hand comment that Asians are bad drivers, it is a stereotypical comment and not a racist one. I don't believe my race is superior to any other, hell, I don't even believe that all Asians are bad drivers, I have/had Asian friends, etc so I don't consider myself racist at all when I make a comment like that out of strong irritation.


Perhaps if you considered Asians to be more careful drivers to the point of annoying people with more speed on their mind it would be considered less racist.



sartresue
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01 Apr 2009, 11:24 am

Fnord wrote:
^ Agreed.

Changing enemies in mid-battle is never a formula for victory.


The enemy of my enemy's enemy topic

Some still try. Especially in PPR.

And many racists are not aware of their racism, and will not admit it, even to themselves, because in doing so then they are admitting to some agenda. I am still of the opinion that people spew racist epithets in order to convert others to their tangled and dreadful deceit. They want to feel safe in a crowd, and wear the same dirty linen (KKK, for example) and then it will not seem 'dirty" to them.


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01 Apr 2009, 12:01 pm

Racism sucks. I don't think we can legislate against racism but I am in totally favor of hate crime laws. If they ever become obsolete, then we can repeal them. But we are nowhere near that point.

I live in Atlanta, GA (home of MLK) where its still very much an issue. Its heartbreaking to listen to my white in-laws who still use the n-word. It really makes me want to vomit and it still makes me cry. I have to take a xanax to be around them because sure as sh**, the conversation will turn to "the blacks". Especially now that the economy is tanking.

I have had more debates about this issue than I care to remember and what I have learned is that only time will help and only time will tell.

I think Obama's election will take us forward a light-year or so, but still - only time and continued intermixing of races and nationalities will help.

In the Northern Suburbs of Atlanta I have seen a dramatic change of the demographics and even better - of the acceptance. When I first moved here 10 years ago - it was all a bunch of Newt Gingrich clones and their offspring. Today, it's all over the place. A few years ago a black kid driving a Lexus would be harrassed by the cops. Today, it's no biggie. (It's the white meth heads who are the new menace).

I believe, one the of the reasons is globalization - in our case of healthcare. Atlanta is a hub of medical research and the home of the CDC. It has attracted educated immigrants from all over the planet - especially Asia and Africa.

As so many of the Gingrich clones lost their shorts over the past few years - these suburbs have become much more democratic and more educated. I have not heard of any race problems down at our high school (knocks on wood) and in fact, the roving gangs of teens usually look pretty well-integrated. Inter-racial dating is very common.

I fear that the friction between Islam and Christianity will continue and will probably get a little worse before it gets better.

Religion is the wildcard here. There are a lot of Muslim immigrants and I worry what happens when all their kids start interdating with the Christian (or Jewish) kids.


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01 Apr 2009, 12:18 pm

Henriksson wrote:
What do you think should be done against racism?



Having hostile opinions of this group and that falls under freedom of thought and make hostile general statements of this group and that is a manifestation of freedom of expression. Free speech implies being able to say things that other people find unpleasant.

Now what should be done is taking legal action against the wrongful use of force. Force used against otherwise innocent individuals with no justification such as self defense or defense of family or defense of property is clearly actionable.

If you want to call some one a dirty so and so (complete with a collective epithet) then by all means do. Words short of incitement to riot and violence are just puffs of air. If you want to lynch some dirty so and so for collective reasons, that is a different matter. We have laws against that.

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01 Apr 2009, 12:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
What do you think should be done against racism?



Having hostile opinions of this group and that falls under freedom of thought and make hostile general statements of this group and that is a manifestation of freedom of expression. Free speech implies being able to say things that other people find unpleasant.

Now what should be done is taking legal action against the wrongful use of force. Force used against otherwise innocent individuals with no justification such as self defense or defense of family or defense of property is clearly actionable.

If you want to call some one a dirty so and so (complete with a collective epithet) then by all means do. Words short of incitement to riot and violence are just puffs of air. If you want to lynch some dirty so and so for collective reasons, that is a different matter. We have laws against that.

ruveyn

Every one is entitle to his own opinion. No one is entitled to his own facts.



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