Church, State and License Plates

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Orwell
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29 Apr 2009, 11:14 pm

cognito wrote:

the phrase comes from Reynolds Vs US, and it was inferred from the first amendments phrasing of the for or against clause.

I am aware of the origin of the phrase, but many people quote it as though it were part of the Constitution. Just because a Supreme Court Justice has used a phrase doesn't make that phrase a guide for determining law... after all, they once upheld "separate but equal."

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WaterWater
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29 Apr 2009, 11:33 pm

I am stressed and moody so I feel like throwing this thread off a bit

Check this out - I bet Jesus knew how to quilt.

http://www.doj.mt.gov/driving/images/pl ... ltshow.jpg

Montana has over 120 sponsered license plate designs. I found them!! ! (minor interest of mine) If you want to check out all of them click on this link http://www.doj.mt.gov/driving/licenseplates.asp scroll down to Sponsered Plates and click a topic in the blue box on the right.

makuranososhi
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30 Apr 2009, 12:15 am

Orwell wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Why should it be illegal? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof..." The state can't prohibit people from expressing their religious views, just as it can't officially endorse one religion over another.

I'm not understanding how this is supposed to be a "separation of church and state" issue.

Without provision for other faiths, it amounts to state support... and my interpretation was the same, that these are state issued plates.

M.

Yes, state issued, but license plates are a rather trivial thing, and I believe states often offer license plates themed for a particular organization or cause without people assuming the government automatically endorses that organization or cause. I think the range of license plate options is most likely driven by requests for a certain type of license plate. So, don't be surprised that there are no Baha'i license plates. It's not really state support of a religion. Florida could probably find enough demand to provide Star of David license plates, though, given the massive Jewish population of South Florida.

Also, the whole "separation of church and state" thing (a phrase never found in the Constitution) seems often to be misinterpreted badly. It's getting to the point where any public profession of faith by someone connected to the government is now criticized as state endorsement, even when it clearly is not. In the US, people are free to follow any faith (or no faith) as their own conscience dictates. Providing a certain license plate style because a lot of people want it is a far cry away from having a state religion- and remember, in the fairly recent past Bible study was a mandatory part of public school curriculum, nowadays teachers can barely even mention religion without fearing reprisal. Our secular society is in no danger from a freaking license plate.

If there is use of state funds for the purpose of developing a support a particular religious faith, then I have a problem with it. I have issue with the use of "faith-based initiatives" that were so enthusiastically supported (sans oversight) for the past eight years. If there is accommodation made for other faiths, and if there is no outlay of taxpayer funds for the development and production of the plates, fine... I believe that people have the right to express themselves. But I find organized religions to be distasteful, subjective, and often more concerned about power and influence than actually spiritual and social involvement.

Yes, I am aware of the source; also aware that there are many documents outside of those considered mainstays of public education that influence and direct policy in the United States. We need only look to the various philosophies of the members of the SCOTUS to see the affects of such documents on process.

M.

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Orwell
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30 Apr 2009, 1:10 am

makuranososhi wrote:

If there is use of state funds for the purpose of developing a support a particular religious faith, then I have a problem with it.

I think you have to pay for the special license plates, so the Christian-based plates aren't being paid for by tax money.

Quote:

I have issue with the use of "faith-based initiatives" that were so enthusiastically supported (sans oversight) for the past eight years.

A lot of churches also dislike those programs because they place restrictions on the church's mission work. The basic rule for the Faith-based initiatives is that as long as the church is using government money, they have to act like a generic secular charity.

Quote:

If there is accommodation made for other faiths, and if there is no outlay of taxpayer funds for the development and production of the plates, fine...

I would be very surprised to hear that taxpayer funds are being used to develop these plates (since you do pay extra to get them). Other faiths (or non-faiths, or any other cause or organization) would be accommodated if there were sufficient demand.

Quote:

But I find organized religions to be distasteful, subjective, and often more concerned about power and influence than actually spiritual and social involvement.

The don't participate in them.

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makuranososhi
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30 Apr 2009, 1:17 am

Agreed - I don't participate in them. If this were to become the default plate for the state, it would cause considerable outcry. Even as a custom request, there was still money spent making the decision and having the design made - if that came from state funds, then I'm not happy. And if you are going to cater to one religion, then I feel it is mandatory that it be made open to all.

M.

monty
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30 Apr 2009, 5:48 am

Orwell wrote:

The state can't prohibit people from expressing their religious views, just as it can't officially endorse one religion over another.

It is an endorsement, and it is one granted unequally. Freedom of religion is based on the conscience of the individual ... approval for state license plate designs is based on telephone surveys where the majority can deny the minority religious groups the opportunity to have such a plate. Getting a particular religious message or theme approved for a plate also requires the approval of the legislature.

The "If you don't like one, don't buy one" theory doesn't hold water ... should the government open a store selling religious icons (but only for particular religions), and then defend itself by saying that the program is purely voluntary and pays for itself? Or should the taxpayer fund bonds designed to build a house of worship for a particular denomination popular with politicians on the grounds that this is merely an 'investment opportunity" for the taxpayer since the bonds are to be repaid by the religionists with private funds??

Government should stay out of the business of religion. Period.

Dussel
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30 Apr 2009, 6:28 am

Can anyone explain my the whole hack about car plates. They have a very limited purpose: To determinate the indemnity of a car. This can be best archived with clear, large and easily readable numbers and letters;

UK:

France:

Germany:

Shadowgirl
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30 Apr 2009, 11:36 am

I bought a license plate like that for my room (even though I don't drive).
I believe if you want it buy it if you don't then don't that's all I have to say about it.

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cognito
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30 Apr 2009, 11:50 am

Dussel wrote:

France:

Germany:

I have to agree, the got the license plate thing down in Europe. Virginia is the #1 specialty license plate state, why? Because it has the plainest license plate of all, blue ID code on white background.

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richardbenson
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30 Apr 2009, 12:59 pm

silly americans. but whatever, i'll just ignore it

ToadOfSteel
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01 May 2009, 10:18 am

Bluestocking wrote:

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Bluestocking wrote:

Can I get one with an Olmec head?

Ask, and you shall receive...

Excellent! It's beautiful!

When you said "Olmec head", that was just begging for the Legends of the Hidden Temple treatment...

vibratetogether
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01 May 2009, 12:54 pm

makuranososhi has been providing adequate qualifications throughout this thread. If it's merely the state allowing for private companies to create and distribute license plates, I have no problem with that, so long as any license plate created is automatically approved. If I want a "Jesus was a bastard" license plate, they can't have some restriction on "obscenity", as I am just as offended by the Jesus plates as Christians would be by my license plate.

However, if it is the state creating these plates, or if any government money is used in the process, that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

makuranososhi
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01 May 2009, 1:19 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

Thanks, vt... I think you and I are of the same mind here.

M.

Orwell
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01 May 2009, 1:25 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

I do agree with the sentiment that this should not be government-funded. From a legal perspective, it's dubious whether that would *actually* be in violation of the Constitutions (which mentions only Congress, not state governments) but in any case I feel the state should be secular and not promote one religious group over another. But I am also a big free speech proponent, so if people want a specialty license plate design and they pay extra to cover the costs the state incurs by printing it, why not?

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vibratetogether
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01 May 2009, 1:32 pm

Freedom of speech only applies to individuals and *private* organizations. I don't see this as a freedom of speech issue when it involves any local, state or federal government. I was careful to qualify that I have no problem if the state merely approves plates created by a private company, however, if it is the state creating these plates, I have a serious problem with that. It really doesn't matter if the government money spent is negated by costs of purchasing the plates. It's just not the place of government to get involved to this degree in any endeavor that reeks of religion.

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