Free Will

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iMark
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30 Apr 2009, 6:24 pm

Orwell wrote:

iMark wrote:

if we have free will then we are all responsible for our own choices.

if there is no free will then nobody is responsible for anything.

This could be disputed to an extent, but in any case what does it have to do with whether or not free will exists?

tangential information only. i will not take sides.

Awesomelyglorious
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30 Apr 2009, 7:02 pm

Orwell wrote:

iMark wrote:

if we have free will then we are all responsible for our own choices.

if there is no free will then nobody is responsible for anything.

This could be disputed to an extent, but in any case what does it have to do with whether or not free will exists?

I think Orwell does not exist. Since I have no free will, I cannot rationally adjust my opinion, but rather am damned to the whims of causality.

alba
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30 Apr 2009, 7:14 pm

iMark wrote:

if we have free will then we are all responsible for our own choices.

if there is no free will then nobody is responsible for anything.

Quote:

you either have free will or you do not.

you are either able to choose or your choices are already made for you.

The script has been written, printed and is being memorized/rehearsed. All that remains is for the actor to appear on stage, act their part, and make it an official performance. Like Shakespeare said--all the world's a stage..[was that Shakespeare?]

Once the performance is official, it can be reviewed, critiqued, graded.

It would seem if freewill doesn't exist, there are only 2 options---no matter what happens......either we are all responsible or no one is responsible.

There may be a 3rd option, but it isn't easy to see or explain.

Last edited by alba on 30 Apr 2009, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alba
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30 Apr 2009, 7:28 pm

greenblue wrote:

Anyway, determinism does makes sense, which I believe it is very plausible, though fatalism seems to be plausible as well, as it has been illustrated in few time travel movies, such as 12 monkeys, if i'm correct on this, something like, playing a film and the end being the way it was written and filmed no matter what the audience feel or believe.

greenblue, you bring up an interesting point about time as it may or may not relate to determinism.

alba
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30 Apr 2009, 7:54 pm

greenblue wrote:

well, given that our choices and actions are determined by some factors and circumstances, hence replacing the idea of free-will with causality, people are and still held responsable for their actions, I mean, crimes are determined by psychological factors as well as personality, learned behaviour, learned experience and genetic/biological traits.

Psychology, psychiatry and neurology seem to confirm this, take sociopaths, psychopaths, schizophrenia, as examples of this, and they are held responsable and punished for their actions, well, except for perhaps schizophrenia?, and even things such as personal disputes or anger problems, you could argue they had the free-will not to do it, but I would say it wouldn't be exactly the case, from my observation, I would say that most likely, people act the way they act because of the way they are and how they have been brought up, and determined by few circumstances, psychology being one.

For the sake of convenience, necessity and control, likely, the concept of free-will have been stated in society, but that's just an idea regarding the issue of free-will and determinism.

Mental incompetence or mental illness is a legal defense against being held entirely accountable for one's actions. Also, highly paid attorneys frequently get their clients off the hook, guilt or innocence being irrelevant.

But in general, we are held accountable for our actions. As you said, for purposes of convenience, necessity and control-- the concept of freewill is used as a justification for meting out punishment and keeping society in order. On the other hand, if the majority of people did not believe in freewill, then what? What would happen if people started writing to their political representatives demanding that no one be singled out for punishment any more; that either we are all guilty and deserve punishment or no one is guilty and therefore none deserve punishment.

claire-333
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30 Apr 2009, 8:09 pm

Determinism is what it is. There is no question of accountability, since these things would also be pre-determined. One's punishment would be just as inevitable as their actions and the occurrences which led to them.

richardbenson
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30 Apr 2009, 8:15 pm

so whats the verdict here you guys. i need to cast my vote

ruveyn
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30 Apr 2009, 8:25 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:

God gave us all free will.

He felt compelled to do so.

ruveyn

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30 Apr 2009, 8:45 pm

alba wrote:

But in general, we are held accountable for our actions. As you said, for purposes of convenience, necessity and control-- the concept of freewill is used as a justification for meting out punishment and keeping society in order. On the other hand, if the majority of people did not believe in freewill, then what? What would happen if people started writing to their political representatives demanding that no one be singled out for punishment any more; that either we are all guilty and deserve punishment or no one is guilty and therefore none deserve punishment.

Actually, belief in determinism has some very good applications to criminal justice. If people accepted determinism, we could move past the current barbarism of vengeance masquerading as "justice" and focus on restitution to the victim and rehabilitation of the offender, both of which are far more productive endeavors than the current punitive approach.

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techstepgenr8tion
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30 Apr 2009, 9:13 pm

If you look at free-will as encompassing all aspects of situational dynamics, neural wiring, past experiences accrued at that point, natural responses, etc. - it only seems to exist where you have situations that leave you completely up in the air. You'll have them in trivial matters all the time, just like you'll have them in larger matters once in a great while. Even then, if you really want to play it close - you could narrow that window even more just in that you could argue that on any amount of reliving a moment that you'd have the same decision; no one can really determine that because its an experiment that can't be performed.

alba
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30 Apr 2009, 10:38 pm

Orwell wrote:

alba wrote:

Agree

ZEGH8578
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30 Apr 2009, 10:46 pm

alba wrote:

Freewill is an illusion. The universe is like a set of interlocking gears....some huge and some microscopic....but they all rotate into each other. Everything impacts and determines everything else. We aren't many; we are one.

Nevertheless, your choices are important and you need to do the best you can to make wise and compassionate ones. Of course, the choices you will ultimately make are already factored into the equation.

Should people be held accountable for their deeds if there is no freewill?

not accountable, but definitely targeted, since they may pose a danger. if someone is predisponed to run around banging people up, and shows it, then they should be moved to an area with less people to bang up, basically.

otherwise i dunno. it comes down to definitions. sure there is no real free will, since everything comes down to the natural cause and effect order of the whole of existence, but we need some imaginary defined borders.

like when we talk about senses. there are no colors, there are no shapes, everything comes down to our organic interpretation of signals, but we NEED a definition. we need there to be red and blue, and square and circular.

the same way, we need there to be will and choise.

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01 May 2009, 12:00 am

Free will implies decisions without consideration which is blatant stupidity. Consideration implies awareness of consequences and if that is the case not only is there no free will, free will is something no sensible person would desire. Responsibility for one's acts is not relevant insofar as the acts impact on society. When a cliff collapses into a landslide that kills people one does not attribute the collapse to malevolence. People are no more responsible than a landslide and dangerous individuals are no more capable of stopping tragedy than a fractured cliff is capable of deciding not to collapse. To take a stick and beat the collapsed cliff is insanity and the remedy of incarceration people for making the wrong decision is equally insane. Society is merely too stupid to comprehend proper remedies but that's the way tradition functions. TS.

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01 May 2009, 4:41 am

Free will is just an illusion, but it is an illusion so strong that I wouldn't worry about it too much.

"All the world's a stage, all the men and women merely players. Except the guy selling popcorn."
-Terry Pratchett

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