Ideologies

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Henriksson
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02 May 2009, 2:04 pm

Quote:

Stalin = Very Good

ROFL! Sorry, but the little credibility you had want out of the window. He was a tyrant that killed millions and served only his own desires.

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Zyborg
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02 May 2009, 2:05 pm

Henriksson wrote:

Quote:

Stalin = Very Good

ROFL! Sorry, but the little credibility you had want out of the window. He was a tyrant that killed millions and served only his own desires.

That is subject of discussion.

Millions of people in Soviet Union are looking up towards Stalin. Many millions are praying for his return.

Ancalagon
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02 May 2009, 2:23 pm

Zyborg wrote:

It is that everyone are thinking for themselves which has caused degenerated society which is around us.

Society were men strive to be thieves and gangsters, and women strive to be prostitutes. That is caused by extreme individualism.

Individualism are for those responsible and worthy.

Most humans need moral guidance.

Freedom in modern liberal democratic societies is freedom to violate basic ethical norms.

Interesting. It does have a rather glaring weakness, though -- how do you ensure that "those responsible and worthy" are the ones in charge?

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Zyborg
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02 May 2009, 2:27 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Zyborg wrote:

Interesting. It does have a rather glaring weakness, though -- how do you ensure that "those responsible and worthy" are the ones in charge?

Commissars and vanguardians should be police and court system of new socialist republic. They will live in windowless cells, in sexual abstinence and in abstinence from any kind of material wealth or drugs. Thus, they will be incorruptible warrior monk force.

Sand
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02 May 2009, 2:33 pm

Zyborg wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Zyborg wrote:

Interesting. It does have a rather glaring weakness, though -- how do you ensure that "those responsible and worthy" are the ones in charge?

You seem to be totally out of touch with the possibilities of human nature.

Orwell
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02 May 2009, 2:40 pm

Zyborg wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Quote:

Stalin = Very Good

ROFL! Sorry, but the little credibility you had want out of the window. He was a tyrant that killed millions and served only his own desires.

That is subject of discussion.

Millions of people in Soviet Union are looking up towards Stalin. Many millions are praying for his return.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist. It collapsed, oh, 17 or 18 years ago. Stalin was a brutal murderer.

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Zyborg
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02 May 2009, 2:43 pm

Orwell wrote:

Zyborg wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Quote:

Stalin = Very Good

ROFL! Sorry, but the little credibility you had want out of the window. He was a tyrant that killed millions and served only his own desires.

That is subject of discussion.

Millions of people in Soviet Union are looking up towards Stalin. Many millions are praying for his return.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist. It collapsed, oh, 17 or 18 years ago. Stalin was a brutal murderer.

The people of what once was Soviet Union I meant.

Gabe
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02 May 2009, 2:50 pm

I don't see the point of piling on with sarcasm and put-downs.

I can see what Zyborg is getting at, even if he hasn't communicated too well. Actually, his description fits most of the ex-USSR countries pretty well. Communism allowed little in the way of personal freedom though much cruelty and persecution. But what replaced it was even worse, for much of the population-the collapse of living standards, rule of law and general chaos.

Obviously, if your experience of Democracy and Liberalism is of massive political corruption, seeing your country's wealth being siphoned to a handful of gangsters while the economy collapses and the mass of the population sinks into poverty, alcoholism and despair, you're not going to have a very positive view of individualist political ideologies. That doesn't make Stalin a hero, is just proves that a combination of anarchy and oligarchy (in the guise of 'Liberal Capitalism', for 90s Russia) can be just as destructive as the worst dicatorship.

vibratetogether
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02 May 2009, 3:00 pm

Zyborg wrote:

vibratetogether wrote:

You've taken something pure (empathy) and distorted it in a grotesque manner.

There is almost no chance of a humanist revolution, so you have to live in a world with a monetary system. As long as there is a monetary system, Libertarian principles are the only way to respect others and their rights.

With the political philosophies you suggested, there is no respect for the rights of anyone. Being that this oligarchy is already incredibly well-entrenched in world politics, the only thing we can do is fight tooth and nail for our rights to live as we wish. You would willingly give up your rights with the hope that this oligarchy will do the right thing, but trust me, they won't. You give up your rights and it'll be even worse.

I do not intend to negotiate with current oligarchy.

I intend to set up my own oligarchy.

There are three kinds of dictators.

1. Dictators who benefit entrenched few bankers (Pinochet, Saddam, Bush)

2. Dictators who benefit majority of people at expense of minority (Stalin)

3. Dictators who destroy everyone (Hitler, Pol Pot)

Oligarchy of capitalists and bankers are result of laissez faire capitalism. They created modern bourgeois nation-state to benefit themselves. Laissez faire without state is impossible, and state under capitalism will always defend interests of property owners.

You libertarians have sick, perverse and twisted understanding of rights. For you, it is violence to put capitalist enemy of people in Gulag, but not to watch hungry child starve to death.

You disgust me.

This is the part where I say something with two words and seven total letters and get a temp ban.

You completely misunderstand my intentions and make gross assumptions about my politics.

I can tell by the terminology you are using that you have completely bought into socialist propaganda and are, as such, incredibly close-minded.

Sand
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02 May 2009, 3:05 pm

Gabe wrote:

Evidently Zyborg is basing his ideal government on qualities of human nature that are fantasies. Nobody with any discernment is particularly overwhelmed with the success of any government but Zyborg is asking for sarcastic comment when his proposal requires a government based on the judgment of imprisoned sex deprived monks. In all probability the equivalent would be a computer data fed with all the possibilities of human character plus all the possibilities of human interaction plus environmental and ecological factors plus - ad infinitum. I personally would not prefer to be ruled by a computer considering all the bugs I have encountered with my own and the frailties of computer programmers in general plus all the spam that would avalanche into such a system.

Gabe
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02 May 2009, 3:40 pm

Sand wrote:

Evidently Zyborg is basing his ideal government on qualities of human nature that are fantasies.

Human nature isn't set in stone, there's a enormous range of political systems in human history and many that may be possible but haven't been tried. Before 1800 slavery was taken for granted in most of the world as perfectly acceptable. Before around 1850 the idea of women having the right to vote would have struck people as absurd and against human nature. Before 1900 only political extremists believed any government had any responsibility for managing the economy. The current Liberal Capitalist/Democratic order has its advantages but it also has its flaws, and is certainly not the end of history. It had a beginning, and it will eventually have an end.

Ancalagon
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02 May 2009, 4:37 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

Keep in mind that most people make assumptions about other people's politics. Few people take the time to understand viewpoints that they disagree with.

Simply accusing the other side of "buying propaganda" or "being close-minded" do not constitute a rational argument.

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Sand
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02 May 2009, 4:53 pm

Gabe wrote:

Sand wrote:

Evidently Zyborg is basing his ideal government on qualities of human nature that are fantasies.

To assume you can lock up a group of people in windowless rooms and deprive them of basic human drives and obtain from them a reasonable set of governing regulations for a culture strikes me as fantasy and I cannot accept that these socially distorted people could ever provide a satisfactory government, whatever the variations of past history might indicate.

ruveyn
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02 May 2009, 5:01 pm

Zyborg wrote:

I want economic democracy. Working man should control fruits of his labour and his workplace. Laws should be made by referendums. Resources should be owned and managed by all of society, for best for society. Not best for greedy profit-driven rootless cosmopolitan minority.

That which is "owned" by everyone will be managed by a few. We saw the results of that principle in the late and unlamented Soviet Union. Instead of capitalists running society, one had thugs running society. Some improvement that was!

ruveyn

richardbenson
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02 May 2009, 5:30 pm

intresting views, zyborg.

Gabe
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02 May 2009, 6:32 pm

Sand wrote:

The idea of rule by ascetic monks is a recurring idea in Orthodox Christianity (possibly acquired via Plato's The Republic, enormously influential on Eastern Christianity) and has been around in Russia in one form or another for centuries.

It's rather implausible-but no more so than the ideas of American Mormons or Baptists or Libertarians. I don't believe in The Rule of the Saints myself, but I do find the ideals it represents (collective goals vs. individual striving, altruism vs. selfishness) positive ones for restoring the balance after several decades of global neo-liberalism.

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