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Father-daughter talk.... the truth about liberalism

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ed
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06 May 2009, 1:30 pm

LordKristov wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
Without reading the responses, I'd prefer that the OP provide her own thoughts as opposed to merely posting stories that she agrees with.

Beyond that, it is important to understand the political spectrum. I've said this before, but I'll go ahead an say it again.

A left-right one-dimensional line cannot possibly account for the entire political spectrum.

You need to look at politics as a 3-dimensional cube where the axis are as such...

Economic Liberal - Economic Conservative
Social Liberal - Social Conservative
Libertarian - Statist

Personally, I am an economic conservative, a social liberal and a libertarian. As such, I appreciate many conservative ideals, but abhor social conservatism. I am all for a flat-tax rate, but I am also pro-choice and pro-gay rights.


This is a very appropriate analogy, and probably applicable to more people than we realize. But given the incredibly partisan politics - on both sides of the aisle - thinking "outside the line" will likely require a third-party candidate making the ballot in all 50 states in a presidential election.


Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian



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06 May 2009, 2:21 pm

ed wrote:
LordKristov wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
Without reading the responses, I'd prefer that the OP provide her own thoughts as opposed to merely posting stories that she agrees with.

Beyond that, it is important to understand the political spectrum. I've said this before, but I'll go ahead an say it again.

A left-right one-dimensional line cannot possibly account for the entire political spectrum.

You need to look at politics as a 3-dimensional cube where the axis are as such...

Economic Liberal - Economic Conservative
Social Liberal - Social Conservative
Libertarian - Statist

Personally, I am an economic conservative, a social liberal and a libertarian. As such, I appreciate many conservative ideals, but abhor social conservatism. I am all for a flat-tax rate, but I am also pro-choice and pro-gay rights.


This is a very appropriate analogy, and probably applicable to more people than we realize. But given the incredibly partisan politics - on both sides of the aisle - thinking "outside the line" will likely require a third-party candidate making the ballot in all 50 states in a presidential election.


Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian


I'm not saying this is a contradiction, but please explain how being an economic liberal and a libertarian works. It would seem that most who claim to be economically liberal would fall more on the statist side of things, as you need a larger government to provide the services an economic liberal prefers.



ed
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06 May 2009, 2:55 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
ed wrote:
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian


I'm not saying this is a contradiction, but please explain how being an economic liberal and a libertarian works. It would seem that most who claim to be economically liberal would fall more on the statist side of things, as you need a larger government to provide the services an economic liberal prefers.


...from my MySpace page:

Quote:
politically, I am a mix of Libertarian and Socialist; I think the Government should not be telling us how to live our lives, but it should be helping those who cannot make it in our highly competitive society. To me, the expression "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is intuitively obvious.



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06 May 2009, 2:59 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Conservativism is Not about fairness!

Since the OP is apparently a conservative and you apparently are not, why should we trust your opinion of what conservatism is about over hers?

However one dimensional this parable is, I think it is a rather clever illustration of two different types of fairness.

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Conservatives are fundamentally hierarchical

Demonstrably false. If this were true, the GOP would have a clear and undisputed leader right now.


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06 May 2009, 3:09 pm

ed wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
ed wrote:
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian


I'm not saying this is a contradiction, but please explain how being an economic liberal and a libertarian works. It would seem that most who claim to be economically liberal would fall more on the statist side of things, as you need a larger government to provide the services an economic liberal prefers.


...from my MySpace page:

Quote:
politically, I am a mix of Libertarian and Socialist; I think the Government should not be telling us how to live our lives, but it should be helping those who cannot make it in our highly competitive society. To me, the expression "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is intuitively obvious.


Maybe we need to add a 4th dimension :lol:



LordKristov
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06 May 2009, 5:29 pm

ed wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
ed wrote:
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian


I'm not saying this is a contradiction, but please explain how being an economic liberal and a libertarian works. It would seem that most who claim to be economically liberal would fall more on the statist side of things, as you need a larger government to provide the services an economic liberal prefers.


...from my MySpace page:

Quote:
politically, I am a mix of Libertarian and Socialist; I think the Government should not be telling us how to live our lives, but it should be helping those who cannot make it in our highly competitive society. To me, the expression "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is intuitively obvious.


I can just imagine the hate-mail you get from willingly including a quote from Karl Marx on your page...


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06 May 2009, 5:47 pm

LordKristov wrote:
ed wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
ed wrote:
Yeah, I'm a Libertarian Socialist :lol:

Economic Liberal, Social Liberal, and Libertarian


I'm not saying this is a contradiction, but please explain how being an economic liberal and a libertarian works. It would seem that most who claim to be economically liberal would fall more on the statist side of things, as you need a larger government to provide the services an economic liberal prefers.


...from my MySpace page:

Quote:
politically, I am a mix of Libertarian and Socialist; I think the Government should not be telling us how to live our lives, but it should be helping those who cannot make it in our highly competitive society. To me, the expression "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is intuitively obvious.


I can just imagine the hate-mail you get from willingly including a quote from Karl Marx on your page...


you guys need to visit europe more.
over here karl marx is comparable to a charlie chaplin santa claus crossover. nice, cuddly and communist!


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06 May 2009, 6:00 pm

LordKristov wrote:
I can just imagine the hate-mail you get from willingly including a quote from Karl Marx on your page...


Quite unlikely - A lot of west-German cities have Karl-Marx-Streets, the west-German Mail had a stamp with Karl Marx:

Image

And he was even on the west-German coinage:

Image

---

Even in the capitalist part of Germany prior the unification, Marx was seen as part of the tradition well to remember.



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06 May 2009, 6:05 pm

Karl Marx was a genius, but his ideas are beyond outdated.



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06 May 2009, 6:30 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Quote:
Conservatives are fundamentally hierarchical

Demonstrably false. If this were true, the GOP would have a clear and undisputed leader right now.
:roll:

Thats completely idiotic! We are talking about ideologies here. Conservatives strongly value tradition, and if dont believe me look it up on wikipedia(and even conservapedia for that matter). Just because at the present time the Republican Party doesnt have a clear and undisputed leader does NOT mean that they are against this in principle NOR does it imply they have an undisputed monopoly on all things conservative.



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06 May 2009, 6:42 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
If anyone has a better explanation of the difference between Republican and Democrat I'm all ears

Alright, listen carefully. I'm about to tell you the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, and it might be a bit of a mouthful...

... The Democrats' icon is a donkey, and the Republicans' icon is an elephant.....

If you really think Republicans aren't for big government, you're delusional.



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06 May 2009, 7:37 pm

Haliphron wrote:
We are talking about ideologies here. Conservatives strongly value tradition,

Tradition =/= hierarchy.


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06 May 2009, 7:54 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
We are talking about ideologies here. Conservatives strongly value tradition,

Tradition =/= hierarchy.


Well I suppose so but one of the reasons traditions are established is not only to preserve the culture but to uphold the social order.



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06 May 2009, 8:18 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
We are talking about ideologies here. Conservatives strongly value tradition,

Tradition =/= hierarchy.


Well I suppose so but one of the reasons traditions are established is not only to preserve the culture but to uphold the social order.

True, but not all social orders are based on a hierarchy.


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06 May 2009, 8:38 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
We are talking about ideologies here. Conservatives strongly value tradition,

Tradition =/= hierarchy.


Well I suppose so but one of the reasons traditions are established is not only to preserve the culture but to uphold the social order.

True, but not all social orders are based on a hierarchy.


Can you give an example of one thats not?



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06 May 2009, 9:33 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
True, but not all social orders are based on a hierarchy.


Can you give an example of one thats not?

How about the one current in America?

You want to know what a hierarchy is? Look at the military. They have a hierarchy for everything, defined in the most minute terms. They kind of have to, really.


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