Does the government own your vagina?

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Sallamandrina
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12 Apr 2011, 10:21 am

HerrGrimm wrote:

Sallamandrina wrote:

HerrGrimm, you couldn't get any contraceptives whatsoever in Communist Romania and other similar places no matter how many kids you already had.

it was four children in this story

You know how these things are written... I've been there and incidentally ended up doing some kind of unofficial research on the issue, that's why I'm so sure. It's just a detail and actually makes your point stronger

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HerrGrimm
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12 Apr 2011, 10:23 am

Sallamandrina wrote:

No, it made the orphanages worse. I feel even more terrible now. Communism just does so many bad things to its people.

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Last edited by HerrGrimm on 12 Apr 2011, 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sallamandrina
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12 Apr 2011, 10:25 am

Sorry for that , I always feel accuracy is important when it comes to such abuses, people should know about the horrors others had to go through.

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BurntOutMom
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12 Apr 2011, 10:34 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

BurntOutMom wrote:

I have to say I never understood the whole "You do the crime, you do the time" consequence for pregnancy. It doesn't seem to really consider the "child" at all.

I don't give a f***ing f**k about a bunch of cells(the "baby")

even if the fetus was a "children"(it is not) like Rothbard said children are a mere property of their parents and they can dispose of them like they want

"But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die."

- Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty Chapter 14 'Children and Rights'

but I like the idea of a society where people is RESPONSABLE for they f***ing mistake....you enjoyed your time without contraception and forgotting the pill? well you should be PUNISHED for this in a way or another

Why stop at forcing someone to carry and have a baby, like that's going to inspire a state of caring and love?? Why not flogging, stoning to death, sewing up or cutting off the the organs used to commit this "crime"? That's real punishment.

But.. I don't understand what your version of the "crime" is.. You don't place value on the unborn, or the born it would seem.... So the crime is just not using birth control? To prevent something you don't place value on in the first place.... I fail to see your motivation, unless it's simply to spread misery.

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12 Apr 2011, 10:34 am

funny how 90% of the anti-abortion argument goes from men, and 90% of those arguments are "aw, look at the baby. Don't kill the baby!!"

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sartresue
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12 Apr 2011, 10:55 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

The lazy people on welfare lacks significant experiental qualities, is utterly dependent on another's body for life, and really does lack a lot of important human neural qualities

people on welfare ≠ person

fixed for you

Fare thee unwell topic

@Inuyasha: Did you really write this? If not, you should inform the mods.

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HerrGrimm
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12 Apr 2011, 11:04 am

sartresue wrote:

@Inuyasha: Did you really write this? If not, you should inform the mods.

No, it was doctored. I cannot find it in this thread. You get in legal trouble if you do this outside the board.

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Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 11:28 am

ryan93 wrote:

funny how 90% of the anti-abortion argument goes from men, and 90% of those arguments are "aw, look at the baby. Don't kill the baby!!"

That's not true at all. I know plenty of pro-choice men,
and to be frank,
most of the arguments based around "innocence", "baby", and other emotional appeals I've seen
have been made by women.

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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 11:51 am

Bethie wrote:

LibertarianAS wrote:

you enjoyed your time without contraception and forgotting the pill? well you should be PUNISHED for this in a way or another

yeah....that's absurd.

I don't find the concept of personal responsibility absurd at all. I find the concept of conveniently bailing out of the consequences of your actions you knew beforehand absurd.

visagrunt
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12 Apr 2011, 12:39 pm

The notion that abortion is "convenient" is juvenile. To use is it as the basis of a political argument borders on the mendacious.

Abortion is a surgical procedure. It involves physical risk and significant emotional stress. The potential for complications, both physical and emotional is high.

A person who has never faced the choice between abortion and pregnancy is ill placed to condemn one of those choices as, "convenient." It betrays both a want of feeling and of reason.

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Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 12:43 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

Bethie wrote:

LibertarianAS wrote:

you enjoyed your time without contraception and forgotting the pill? well you should be PUNISHED for this in a way or another

yeah....that's absurd.

I don't find the concept of personal responsibility absurd at all. I find the concept of conveniently bailing out of the consequences of your actions you knew beforehand absurd.

We're not talking about "personal responsibility".

We're talking about women being forced into pregnancy and childbirth because some people can't stand the thought of them having consequence-free sex, and think having unprotected sex earns you the punishment (yes, worded that way) of state-mandated reproduction.

Also. If consent to sex equaled consent to pregnancy, abortion would not exist.
Abortion is a consequence of unprotected sex, and means taking responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy-
it's just not a consequence the "personal responsibility" crowd likes.

Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 12:46 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Technically, most abortions are taking a pill and having a period.

But you're absolutely right- the "convenient" rhetoric is a toned-down version of ad homing the women who have abortions as murdering whores. The reality is that most women who have them list among their primary reasons as inability to afford a pregnancy, fear that it will threaten her ability to care for already-existing dependents, and not having a supportive partner.

phil777
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12 Apr 2011, 12:46 pm

What visagrunt said is "one" of the facets i was trying to cover in my first comment here. =/ (I reckon he would know, since he mentionned being a doctor somewhere else... ^.- )

Also, i would urge people to "please" correctly quote someone, or there'll be trouble. (Check sartresue's last post if you don't understand)

psychohist
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12 Apr 2011, 1:18 pm

phil777 wrote:

You have Robert Nozick to thank for that, he was one of the american philosophers who was against Rawls and his principle of equal chances (ow, memory is being more or less correct, feel free to correct me <.<). I reckon he was the one who said that the state shouldn't have to tell you what you can do with your own body, such as prostitution. In the same line of thought*, he'd say that the state can't force you to jeopardize your life if someone is drowning, for example. among other examples, that the state couldn't force you to wear a helmet when you're riding a bicycle or a motorcycle. :roll:

Indeed. It's Nozick's philosophy that, as you say, "the state shouldn't have to tell you what you can do with your own body", that says the state can't force a woman to bring a pregnancy to term if she doesn't want to. As you say, it's an extension of property rights: people should at a minimum have absolute property rights over their own bodies.

Rawls was in favor of equal outcomes, not equal chances. Rawls' philosophy is the one that would permit the state to interfere with a woman's right to choose what to do with her own pregnancies and her own body.

AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 2:02 pm

Bethie wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Bethie wrote:

LibertarianAS wrote:

you enjoyed your time without contraception and forgotting the pill? well you should be PUNISHED for this in a way or another

yeah....that's absurd.

I don't find the concept of personal responsibility absurd at all. I find the concept of conveniently bailing out of the consequences of your actions you knew beforehand absurd.

And the "personal responsibility" that consists of parenting the kid is a much longer term of taking responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy than abortion. Both the mother AND the father are responsible for the pregnancy so neither of em should be having "consequence-free sex". Wrap it up properly and you will be very likely to not have a pregnancy occur or transmit an STD. Even if there's an ever so slight chance of pregnancy, you still choose to take that risk.

skafather84
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12 Apr 2011, 2:04 pm

visagrunt wrote:

significant emotional stress.

And the trash rhetoric of being called a baby killer doesn't help that.

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