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How can anyone with AS be a conservative?

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ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2011, 4:19 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Basically no one inherently has power but it is given to you or revoked by others since power is a social dynamic. Power is basically a position of trust based on the assumption you will act in the self-interest of others.


The nature of power as socially-given doesn't in any way negate that it is socially-given INHERENTLY to some versus others based on real versus perceived differences, and the notion that some people have a right to define reality for the rest. This is naturally aside from issues of heritable power or lack thereof among classes, especially those predicated on socioeconomics and their related cultures.

Someone earnestly-professing such child-like innocence as this needn't lash out with accusations of "pettiness" when his obliviousness to the world is suggested to him-
it just makes the adults think he needs a nap.


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14 Aug 2011, 4:33 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Basically no one inherently has power but it is given to you or revoked by others since power is a social dynamic. Power is basically a position of trust based on the assumption you will act in the self-interest of others.


The nature of power as socially-given doesn't in any way negate that it is socially-given INHERENTLY to some versus others based on real versus perceived differences, and the notion that some people have a right to define reality for the rest. This is naturally aside from issues of heritable power or lack thereof among classes.
That's exactly what my statement addressed. The powerful few cannot socially engineer racism out of nowhere, but they can take advantage of racism that is already prevalent among the masses. Racism is only powerful in a society where it is accepted by the masses.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Someone earnestly-professing such child-like innocence as this needn't lash out with accusations of "pettiness" when his obliviousness to the world is suggested to him-
it just makes the adults think he needs a nap.
An overgrown teenager who is unable to hold a discussion without resorting to condescension and interpreting my posts in the worst possible light telling me about maturity? Wow talk about putting me in my place!

ValentineWiggin wrote:
(Come to think of it, I can't think of even any children who believe all power is rightfully-held. Quite Machiavellian...)
When did I say it was rightfully held? All I said is the power structure is determined by the masses, not by the powerful few. It is the masses that gave the most power to the few who have currently been made powerful. Jesus Christ, do you read every one of my posts with s**t stained glasses or what?



ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2011, 4:39 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Basically no one inherently has power but it is given to you or revoked by others since power is a social dynamic. Power is basically a position of trust based on the assumption you will act in the self-interest of others.


The nature of power as socially-given doesn't in any way negate that it is socially-given INHERENTLY to some versus others based on real versus perceived differences, and the notion that some people have a right to define reality for the rest. This is naturally aside from issues of heritable power or lack thereof among classes.
That's exactly what my statement addressed. The powerful few cannot socially engineer racism, but they can take advantage of racism that is already prevalent among the masses. Racism is only powerful in a society where it is accepted by the masses.


You truly-believe the dominant class can't introduce entirely-novel ideas and via the cultural, economic, and political institutions and discourse they control make a populace of zealots?

Your history teacher failed you.

AceOfSpades wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
(Come to think of it, I can't think of even any children who believe all power is rightfully-held. Quite Machiavellian...)
When did I say it was rightfully held? All I said is the power structure is determined by the masses, not by the powerful few. It is the masses that gave the most power to the few who have currently been made powerful. Jesus Christ, do you read every one of my posts with sh** stained glasses or what?

I just feel a bit like I'm encountering a new native who's wholly-ignorant to knowledge considered common, let alone academic.
For someone who believes power is achieved democratically in any but the rarest of instances, such a native is precisely analogous.


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"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 14 Aug 2011, 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AspieRogue

14 Aug 2011, 4:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:




Actually, if you read all of the biographical information on Lovecraft, you'll find that he reassessed his whole political thinking with the Great Depression, particularly when the economic strain had destroyed his marriage, and left him destitute while living in New York. He in fact became a New Dealer, and a mild socialist. The young, socially isolated Lovecraft was a far cry from the older, more world wise Lovecraft in regard to his political, social, and even racial views.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Um, Bill, I am perfectly well aware that Lovecraft's political and social views changed later in his life. Which is perfectly sensible given that his personal interests were at stake. He did however, maintain his misanthropic outlook on life and the world we live in. Those who are champions of capitalism and liberty in general have a more optimistic, positive view of the world which is common to most modern day liberals. Lovecraft however, did NOT.



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14 Aug 2011, 4:48 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Basically no one inherently has power but it is given to you or revoked by others since power is a social dynamic. Power is basically a position of trust based on the assumption you will act in the self-interest of others.


The nature of power as socially-given doesn't in any way negate that it is socially-given INHERENTLY to some versus others based on real versus perceived differences, and the notion that some people have a right to define reality for the rest. This is naturally aside from issues of heritable power or lack thereof among classes.
That's exactly what my statement addressed. The powerful few cannot socially engineer racism, but they can take advantage of racism that is already prevalent among the masses. Racism is only powerful in a society where it is accepted by the masses.


You truly-believe the dominant class can't introduce entirely-novel ideas and via the cultural, economic, and political institutions they control make a populace of zealots?

Your history teacher failed you.
These novel ideas have to be preceded by something that already has power within society to carry any weight.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
(Come to think of it, I can't think of even any children who believe all power is rightfully-held. Quite Machiavellian...)
When did I say it was rightfully held? All I said is the power structure is determined by the masses, not by the powerful few. It is the masses that gave the most power to the few who have currently been made powerful. Jesus Christ, do you read every one of my posts with sh** stained glasses or what?

I just feel a bit like I'm encountering a new native who's wholly-ignorant to knowledge considered common, let alone academic.
For someone who believes power is achieved democratically in any but the rarest of instances, such a native is precisely analogous.
So then is power some sort of natural right that is granted rather than loaned or revoked by others putting you in such a position? This concept of power I'm talking about isn't just about political systems but as a general social dynamic. Power is a social construction. Not that power only exists because we all act like it does since it has a universal function, but that power is purely a social dynamic that comes from others determining your position within the hierarchy. That was pretty much my point, not this whole "I'm a Machiavellian who believes all positions of power are rightfully held" straw man crap that you tried to pull.



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14 Aug 2011, 5:10 pm

Dox47 wrote:
M_P thinks that I'm secretly a far right extremist pretending to be reasonable, presumably so that I can fool a small AS politics forum into doing something or another, it breaks down around that point. Really though, he's my biggest fan, notice the encyclopaedic knowledge of my posts, right down to the phrasing, I mean it's been at least a few months since I called this place an echo chamber.

Actually, he stalks everybody. No joke.



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14 Aug 2011, 5:49 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I like the irony in the thread title and OP; presuming that aspies would default to liberalism because it's in their personal self interest to do so. So, a conservative aspie must be thinking of the greater good when they choose that ideology because it doesn't make sense any other way? Needless to say I'm certain that our board liberals would vigorously contest this interpretation, but it was a ridiculous question in the first place.


Another possibility being that conservative Aspies are unaware of their self-interests or falsely think an extra few pecentile points on the upper income bracket is going to drastically affect them.



That's what I said, buddy. Conservative aspies believe they have a chance to get a stake in the status quo and make it to the top and when they do they want to enjoy their privilege.


Explains why over half of millionaires in the US are 1st generation...

Seriously, it's more of I don't believe in punishing someone just because they are successful. They earned their money, it's their money not yours.



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14 Aug 2011, 7:36 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I like the irony in the thread title and OP; presuming that aspies would default to liberalism because it's in their personal self interest to do so. So, a conservative aspie must be thinking of the greater good when they choose that ideology because it doesn't make sense any other way? Needless to say I'm certain that our board liberals would vigorously contest this interpretation, but it was a ridiculous question in the first place.


Another possibility being that conservative Aspies are unaware of their self-interests or falsely think an extra few pecentile points on the upper income bracket is going to drastically affect them.



That's what I said, buddy. Conservative aspies believe they have a chance to get a stake in the status quo and make it to the top and when they do they want to enjoy their privilege.


Explains why over half of millionaires in the US are 1st generation...

Seriously, it's more of I don't believe in punishing someone just because they are successful. They earned their money, it's their money not yours.


Taxation is not punishment. It's just logical that the more wealth an individual has, the more taxes he or she can pay. And taxes is what makes the world go around.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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14 Aug 2011, 7:40 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
M_P thinks that I'm secretly a far right extremist pretending to be reasonable, presumably so that I can fool a small AS politics forum into doing something or another, it breaks down around that point. Really though, he's my biggest fan, notice the encyclopaedic knowledge of my posts, right down to the phrasing, I mean it's been at least a few months since I called this place an echo chamber.

Actually, he stalks everybody. No joke.

Very true. MP is somehow aware of the content of posts I made well over a year before he joined the forum.


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14 Aug 2011, 7:40 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:




Actually, if you read all of the biographical information on Lovecraft, you'll find that he reassessed his whole political thinking with the Great Depression, particularly when the economic strain had destroyed his marriage, and left him destitute while living in New York. He in fact became a New Dealer, and a mild socialist. The young, socially isolated Lovecraft was a far cry from the older, more world wise Lovecraft in regard to his political, social, and even racial views.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Um, Bill, I am perfectly well aware that Lovecraft's political and social views changed later in his life. Which is perfectly sensible given that his personal interests were at stake. He did however, maintain his misanthropic outlook on life and the world we live in. Those who are champions of capitalism and liberty in general have a more optimistic, positive view of the world which is common to most modern day liberals. Lovecraft however, did NOT.


So the guy was a gloomy gus. show me an Aspie who wasn't. But I reiterate, that doesn't mean that he was a conservative in later life, because he claimed he wasn't anymore.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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14 Aug 2011, 8:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I like the irony in the thread title and OP; presuming that aspies would default to liberalism because it's in their personal self interest to do so. So, a conservative aspie must be thinking of the greater good when they choose that ideology because it doesn't make sense any other way? Needless to say I'm certain that our board liberals would vigorously contest this interpretation, but it was a ridiculous question in the first place.


Another possibility being that conservative Aspies are unaware of their self-interests or falsely think an extra few pecentile points on the upper income bracket is going to drastically affect them.



That's what I said, buddy. Conservative aspies believe they have a chance to get a stake in the status quo and make it to the top and when they do they want to enjoy their privilege.


Explains why over half of millionaires in the US are 1st generation...

Seriously, it's more of I don't believe in punishing someone just because they are successful. They earned their money, it's their money not yours.


Taxation is not punishment. It's just logical that the more wealth an individual has, the more taxes he or she can pay. And taxes is what makes the world go around.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the way you are describing it, makes it become a punishment.

Oh they earn more so they have to pay a larger percentage of their income for taxes, and you're telling me that's not punishing someone for being successful... 8O



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14 Aug 2011, 8:19 pm

No, it's not a punishment to pay a bigger percentage if you have more. Plus, for a millionaire to pay more isn't going to inconvenience him or her. It would be a punishment, though, to expect someone of lesser means to shoulder the burden.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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14 Aug 2011, 8:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
No, it's not a punishment to pay a bigger percentage if you have more. Plus, for a millionaire to pay more isn't going to inconvenience him or her. It would be a punishment, though, to expect someone of lesser means to shoulder the burden.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yes let's tax small business owners more and more, because they are evil... :roll: Most of these millionaires you are babbling about, own businesses that hire people, while I know democrats want a dependence society where everyone is depending on tidbits the ruling class throw to them, most of America finds that "utopia" to be sickening.



AspieRogue

14 Aug 2011, 8:43 pm

Taxes are what pays for civilization. I am So sick and tired of libertardians and even mainstream conservatives whining about having to pay taxes! If you really can't learn to put up with paying taxes, move to Somalia.



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14 Aug 2011, 8:46 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Taxes are what pays for civilization. I am So sick and tired of libertardians and even mainstream conservatives whining about having to pay taxes! If you really can't learn to put up with paying taxes, move to Somalia.


Are all taxes equally just or rational? Some taxes are unjust transfers of assets from productive people to unproductive people. Do you call -that- civilization?

The taxes for public order, public safety, public health make perfectly good sense. Subsidies to corporations so they can pay bonuses to the drones in the suits do not make good sense.

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Inuyasha
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14 Aug 2011, 8:47 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Taxes are what pays for civilization. I am So sick and tired of libertardians and even mainstream conservatives whining about having to pay taxes! If you really can't learn to put up with paying taxes, move to Somalia.


Do you even pay taxes? Reason we complain, is cause we pay taxes and are disgusted with how government is being irresponsible with our money. It is our right to be able to voice our ire about it, and if you have a problem with that, how about you move to North Korea or Syria.