The US is heading toward a grave historical mistake.

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So now you're admitting to smearing me.


Btw, Scythe is not cherry-picking anything. The Quran (sp?) isn't like the Torah nor is it like the Bible. The Quran is set up as a rule book that you must do this, this, and this. The Torah and Bible are set up almost like a history book, and while the Torah and the Bible have some violent incidents in them, they don't advocate trying to conquer everyone around them and put all nonbelievers to the sword. The Torah specifically mentions that the land where modern Israel is located to be their land via their covenent to God, the Torah does not say they should run around conquering everyone. The Bible doesn't advocate using violence to convert people to Christianity.

While there are Muslims out there that are nonviolent and more secular, you have to realize that there actually is a fundamental difference in the religious texts.

Double post

Last edited by JakobVirgil on 08 Oct 2011, 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Would calling you paranoid be smearing you?
I am a pragmatist when it comes to religion
(I think politics bend the texts more than the texts bend the politics)

scythe said

Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

the verse in context is.
9:5-6 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

notice the part of the verse he cropped notice the word Pagan (Xtians and Jews are not pagans under Islam)

Scythe said
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

8:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

kinda changes the meaning of the thing

also notice that he uses the same sura and verse numbers but a different translation
for the next verse. So kinda just copy and pasted off of thereligionofpeace an anti-islam hate site.

also his next block of text is just plain not in the Koran it is from medieval commentary.

so not exactly honest not exactly moderate.
(But since you seem to endorse him)
A lot like you.

The remark on the confederacy was actually carried on from another discussion after Jakob made multiple racial slurs towards whites and accused me of being a red neck. Going to his level was my mistake as he is using tactics to anger me because he know he does not have a real argument. He is trying to excuse racial slurs by saying its ok basically because its not possible to be racist towards whites. As for cut and paste I have the Koran and translation is a poor argument. I gave many quotes as to show the consistency of this belief system. I doubt Jakob has even read the Koran and is using cheap canned leftist arguments in order to defend his poor arguments. I will have to avoid letting his cheap tactics anger me. I am just tired of being told how evil I am for my skin color. Truth be told I am very mixed including Cherokee.

As for moderate I have views that are not consistent with the right wing side as I disagree with the drug wars, believe in a strong educational field and believe on restricting the obsessive amounts of money the rich acquire through unethical means.

I believe that the rich who have made their empires on the backs of their employees are not fairly compensated for the work they put in. I see the robber barons of the thirties reemerging with a vengeance and that in the long run will hurt everyone. I also am a moderate believer in the environment. While I disagree with giving ridiculous government control and excessive price hikes in everything which to me is about money not helping the environment. I believe their should be a move towards more fuel efficient vehicles and cleaner power. I am not a fanatic though as I have seen some people. I also have issues with the oil companies who I believe are controlling the market by severely limiting the supply in order to drive up profit.

Enough said though. I simply do not believe the Jews are to blame for the violence and war over their. How many holocausts is it going to take before people realize these people only want to live in peace in their country without such angry neighbors who are bent on destroying them.

"Palestine means Palestine in its Entirety - From the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River... We Cannot Give Up a Single Inch of it... Why Should We Recognize Condoleezza Rice... or Israel's Right to Exist?" - Hamas

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... _driv.html (video of his quote)

I don't think it would be bad to let Palestinians have their own land but why does it have to be Israels land? Why is it every time they are given something they only want more. I am sorry but from what I have seen the Jews are the ones who are given the unfair deal. They were nearly driven to extinction by the Nazi's. Tortured, neglected, mocked and robbed. They have been driven around the world by their enemies for no other reason then anti-Semitic causes. The U.S. is not going to stop helping them in a time of peace and they get no real benefit from constant war. That statement from earlier was badly placed. Even if the Palestinians are no longer their enemy and they had peace you still have countless Arab nations around them with nothing better to do than bully them. Ever hear of the six day war? Unprovoked they were surrounded and attacked by all their enemies and yet they not only won the war but beat back their enemies in six days. The Jews have earned their right to exist. How many atrocities before the world stops picking on them. They are doing what they can to survive.

Actually, it didn't change the meaning and you kinda shot yourself in the foot.

JV likes to kid around



The Jewish people didn't deserve any of the hardships they endured. They have the right to self determination, like all Humans should- this also includes the Palestinians.



These type of radicals do not represent the entirety of the population. Detente that will result in "cooling" is possible through international mediation with a plebiscite to decide on the ultimate agreement (two state solution, Palestinian integration into Israel (one state solution), etc)



Well, the Palestinians happened to have lived there for some time as well. It was not always a war zone; I suspect that had the issue not been forced as it was, the two state solution would have been adopted by the 1950s, and several wars may never have occurred.



This is something I went into a few pages back in this thread. The Israeli military situation and the current politics of the region make an all out war with its neighbors unlikely. The IDF is the best military in the region; the Egyptians would be the biggest threat, but that is a remote one, even with the recent problems with the Israeli embassy and border skirmishes. Ultimately the Israelis have a nuclear arsenal as the best possible deterrent to invasion

That is not kidding around.



The Jewish people also shouldn't be told by the international community to slit their own throats either.



However Hamas controls Gaza and I think Fatah is becoming radicalized too.



However the wars did occur. I think Syria, Jordan, and Egypt need to decide which of them coughs up land for a Palestinian state since they were the ones that kept the land meant for the Palestinians after said Arab countries failed in their attack on Israel.



Actually, the Israelis aren't likely to use their nukes except in a doomsday scenario, the problem is that Islamic Radicals don't care how many of their own people die in the name of Jihad. Nukes aren't as much of a deterrent if your opponent doesn't care if they live or die.

Really opposition = persecution?
Medieval commentary quoted as part of the Koran not dishonest?
just say you are wrong quick like I do no one will notice.
If you want to oppose radical Islamists for what they actually do I am with you. (and they do a lot )
If you want to argue that their scripture say they should be more violent then they are, then you are on your own
or a guess you and Scythe can be buddies.

If the Muslims say they are peaceful I will accept that in the same way I accept that Xtians love the poor.

I'm not saying that Muslims should be more violent, I'm saying that their religion is a lot more violent than Judaism or Christianity.

I think he shot himself in a lot of other places with that rant. Basically you just made an argument in my favor. "If the unbelievers don't repent" Its basically saying kill them if they don't convert. That changes nothing. Coming from an extremist I find you calling me a liar and extremist to be very off. Especially with your constant mocking and cheesy insults.

Qur’an:9:5,
9:5-6 (just additional verse not exact same one)
Qur’an:8:39 (different vs.)

I could quote more. I have the Koran right hear with me. Have you ever read the Korran Jacob. I am surprised you even know what it is.

Sura 4
90 Why are ye two parties on the subject of the hypocrites, when God hath cast them off for their doings? Desire ye to guide those whom God hath led astray? But for him who God hate leadeth astray, thou shalt by no means find a pathway.
91 they desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and slay them wherever ye find them: but take none of them as friends or helpers.

Quoted directly from the Koran. I did not cut and paste. I input it myself.
I don't hate Muslims or Palestinians as not all are quite so enthusiastic with carrying out some of the more abrasive commands from the Koran. I had a Palestinian friend before. I more have issues with their government then the people as a whole. I just wish they would both quit fighting though but it appears that would take a miracle. I await the harsh criticisms and insults as usual.

Don't get your assless chaps in a twist



What does maintaining a cycle of displacement accomplish in the long run Inuyasha?



The point is the only threats Israel has to deal with are internal, none of its neighbors are likely to attempt a conventional military engagement. It would be a very unlikely scenario that the nuclear weapons are used on militants armed with small arms and rocket artillery. This deterrent ensures Israel can do what it wants inside of its borders (and sometimes outside of them). Whether these borders are what they are now, or are organized according to plebiscite by the inhabitants.

I think rants are longer

As for nuclear weapons if Israel had to come to nuke the Palestinians it would be like shooting a rocket launcher standing two feet away from your target. You may get the target but you will take yourself out along with it.

I can respect Viglins input on this a lot more as he takes a more respectful approach.

Honestly I just don't see peace in the middle east. At least not for a long time or before a massive catastrophe occurs. I do not believe Israel is being given a fair deal however. I am more targeting the government. I knew a Palestinian and he told me the government was the real perpetrator of this constant violence. You cannot blame an entire people of a country or religious belief on the basis of one group. I don't think Muslims should be more violent but I find the text to incorporate a lot of violence in itself. They seem more concerned with being good to fellow believers but not to those outside their system. That is my opinion.

I am not going to admit being wrong Jacob as you have failed to convince me otherwise of what I see to be the situation. I don't know why you are so hell bent on trying to change my mind. I have always had a saying which can be applied to all of us in some way. You can be right in the wrong way. So even if any of us are completely correct on what we believe it does not matter if all we do is create worthless hostility.

I have faced racist remarks toward me, attacks on me because of skin color and it is tiresome dealing with this stupid repetitious situation. They are no less hurtful than ANY other slur. No ethnicity is truly more victim or evil as we are all subject to human nature. I don't care what argument you make. Taking a small piece of recent history and saying the last several thousand years no longer matter is very narrow minded indeed as it focuses on a narrow piece of evidence.

Again, assuming this is true, why is it our problem again? It is not like Israel can't defend themselves if it was true. It is not like the US wouldn't still help Israel if that happened because what we are talking about is about restoring borders and not about stopping to be subservient to Israel whenever they need to open a pickle flask or a sex slave.

The violence of the extreme Jihadist Muslims is a direct consequence of their religious beliefs.

Islam has yet to undergo the same detoxification than Judaism went throught 1500-2000 years ago. It turns out that getting the sh*t kicked out of them and being dispersed to far away lands has lead to an alteration of Judaism which has made it much more tractable adaptable to living among strangers. This changes has yet to happen to Islam.

ruveyn

Oppression brings about humility. That is almost a law in human nature and the Jews have had more than their fair share.