Understanding Feminism (Women: Your opinions)

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You're both misinterpreting the holy hell out of what I'm saying.

I never, not once, blamed feminism or women for men's issues. I do, however, disagree with the idea of "male privilege" that is propagated by feminism. And I take issue with a movement that claims to be for gender equality yet ignores, or even outright denies, the issues faced by one gender.

I brought those men's issues up because I actually agree with what you said there. A member came in to the discussion and stated that women are oppressed because their incomes are lower. I brought up the issues that affect men, including violence, in order to demonstrate that it isn't as simple as that. That you can't make a sweeping generalization like that based on only one aspect of our culture. Then I had to spend pages and pages defending my assertions, despite having cited multiple studies that agreed with the point I was making, because that user kept trying to manipulate the data by controlling for irrelevant factors (in other words, he was attempting to deny those issues exist).

Also, don't lump me in with the MRAs. I stated very clearly that I do not associate myself with that movement.

That's irrelevant. Having a girlfriend does not prove anything about your views.

Kinda ridiculous that you'd even bring it up. But, since you seem to think it's important, I've been with my girlfriend for almost six years now.

that's a f*****g joke. Between the VAWA, and various hate crime laws, the penalties for violence against those groups are greater than the penalties for violence against others.

If preventing violence were such a priority, then why focus on these groups rather than on the group that is victimised most often?

" If preventing violence were such a priority, then why focus on these groups rather than on the group that is victimised most often?"

It's one of those questions that are easy to answer, but hard to admit..... Well, not for me.

The reason why is because feminism, despite what Dr. Nominalist says,*clears throat* DOES NOT HAVE MEN'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART, AND OFTEN TIMES, IS HOSTILE TOWARDS THE INTERESTS OF MEN!

That's where MRA groups come in. We were formed as a response to the negative effects of Feminism and female-biased laws.

MDS won that one.

But, like feminism, the men's rights movement also seems only to care about their own issues to the point of denying the actual issues that women face. I admit to having had an interest in that movement when I first heard of it some years back. However, in my experience, there was even more misogynism in that movement than there was misandrism in the feminist movement.

I agree with your view of feminism. But I also agree with feminist's view of MRAs. So I am forced to either ignore the problem, or to come at it from a third side, one which takes into account the issues that both genders face.

In my approach to the problem of gender-inequality I choose not to side with one gender over the other, but rather to judge instances of possible inequality or discrimination on a case-by-case basis.

As long as you don't call Benny Hill a dirty old man and a sexist, i'm fine with ya. You go against that, and I will fight to the end to defend poor old Benny.

Not really. He assumed I was anti-woman. Again, if I were so anti-woman, I wouldn't have settled down with a woman. Instead, I probably would have sought the company of easy women, or simply become a "MGTOW".

Anti-feminist =! Anti woman.

Many do. I don't follow your reasoning here, and it's entirely contradicted by reality in any case.

I think your view is the most reasonable and convincing in this thread, however, I also think it is entirely futile, and will remain so for a few centuries at the very least.

WTF?
Married people of either gender can easily be misogynistic/misandrist regardless of how long they've been together. That's nothing but an attempt to belittle the person you're talking to, as if someone's worth is somehow measured by the presence of a different set of genitals.

The virgin/whore complex is female, darling. If you're implying that I was presenting a male form of a perfect person/evil person dichotomy, I don't see where; what I said, as a side note, was that my boyfriend is a nice guy but doesn't have a Nice Guy complex.


And your data, other than hypotheses and anecdotes, is...?


<sigh>
Unless those men are visiting prostitutes, a lot of women are 'humping and dumping,' too. Sex before marriage has always been the norm; now it's more out in the open. A lot of women reserve marriage for someone they want to start a family with, and a lot of women just feel like they're better off without a man.


Eeeyeahhh... why'd you split that part of my response to your ad-hominem off? Why did you get into victim-blaming, when I was talking about criminals?

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Violence against men is committed for dramatically different reasons than violence against women, with the exception of simple muggings where the perpetrator is after a wallet. Violence against men too often involves issues of dominance or 'respect,' whereas violence against women is too often sexualized. If you pretend that it's all the same, you're going to handicap your ability to address the causes and end any of it.


Of course it is, but if you are saying that men charged with '1st degree murder' are punished more severely than women charged with '1st degree murder,' then you're ignoring that the circumstances and exacerbating factors for the two groups are statistically different. Find me as study showing that women are charged less for the exact same killing under the exact same circumstances, and I'll start to see it as more of a problem.

And yet so many of you MRAs whine when women want to have more access to equal pay and to higher-paying jobs in the workforce, and when women want to get access to front-line combat when they're physically qualified. How about you, Rain? Are you all for women making as much as men at work, so that a man's paycheck isn't the deciding factor in a woman's future? Do you think that equally-qualified women should be able to serve on the front lines, and that women should have to register for the draft?


<snort>
You have forgotten, once again, two important factors:
1)there's a written record here, and you have yet to post any actual data - just assertions.
2)this is a site for people with Asperger's syndrome (look up the diagnostic criteria on Asperger's people and emotions, if you're not familiar with it). My normal persona is described as 'Vulcan-like' by many of the people who know me. Not that it matters, as this was simply another ad-hominem attack designed to belittle my arguments without actually addressing them.

mds: you're not the only one arguing on this thread. Not everything that is said is in direct response to you.

Punching your spouse in the face at home (usually a chronic happening, when it occurs) is not the same as punching a stranger in the face at a bar. Thus the punishment for the former is, and should be, harsher than the punishment for the latter.
Edit: that said, if a woman is attacking her husband at home, and causes similar levels of damage to him as a man who attacks his wife at home, they should both receive the same punishment. It should go without saying, but I agree with mds that it often does not.

Sorry then.

But, to be fair, you did quote me right at the beginning of your post. And it wasn't clear when exactly you stopped responding to me directly, and starting voicing your views in a more general sense.

Edit: plus there's a bit of defensiveness there. Too many people have taken my criticism of modern feminism to mean that I share the "get back in the kitchen" attitude that seems so common among MRAs. So... Yeah, sorry about the misunderstanding.

Where I quote you, I'm responding to you. Where I don't quote you, I'm probably not. I've posted a lot on this thread, so I'm not sure exactly which posts of mine you're thinking of.


For the record, I am well aware that your position is NOT the same as Rain's or MRAs in general. There are quite a few things I even agree with you on.