The Gun Control Challenge

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To reduce the number of deaths involving guns, you simply need to moneyball down the statistical likelihood of such by injecting more accountability and responsibility into both owners and manufacturers - all through legal channels.

The production of guns could be regulated to make prices and quantities adjusted in a fashion where they become restricted to a calculated percentage of people that are more likely to have a significant degree of basic education and/or gainful employment.

Then, new guns should contain irremovable serial numbeirs in some fashion, embedded in parts that are both legally classified and next to impossible to remove unless a part is either destroyed - making the gun inoperable - or is otherwise unreplicable except by technologies available only to manufacturers.

Finally, before being allowed to take a new gun "offsite" the prospective owner should pay for a complete course on how to clean, load, and fire that particular weapon, and be certified by an accredited trainer. In addition, the owner will be at least partially responsible for the whereabouts of the weapon 100% of the time. So, if the owner is in a position where they don't know where the weapon is, they should report that to authorities immediately. From that point forward, the level of punishment could only be exercised by the degree proven in court that the owner did NOT take reasonable steps to keep the firearm from falling into someone else's hands.

Disclaimer: I don't really give two craps about guns, and thus don't advocate any particular measure involving them. I merely proposed a solution that would add a third dimension to a basic right. Of course you'd have to do studies to conclude that guns are being produced at a faster rate than statistically responsible owners come into being. But I suppose it could be done.

I'll make this short and sweet:

Clearly, you're not a machinist.

Done!

Really, almost no one?

http://www.texasautoinjuryblog.com/2012 ... iver.shtml

Hmm, 20 percent of people involved in fatal accidents don't have licenses? But you said almost no one drives without one!

My god, you're just making things up, aren't you? I, for one, am scandalized.

Do I really need to give a similar treatment to "no one complaining about the bureaucracy? Have you ever even been to a DMV?

Also, my assertions are baseless, but the guy spinning an unworkable scheme with no precedent anywhere gets a pass why? Oh yeah, you're just making things up. Forgot about that for a sec.



You don't seem to understand the "market" part of a black market. There isn't much of a demand for high explosives in this country, and those who do need them are small enough in number that going through the permitting problem isn't that much of a hassle.
Now ban something with widespread consumer demand, like say coffee, and you'd have people growing Arabica trees in their closets and building underground roasters tomorrow. I'd say look back at how well (alcohol) Prohibition worked out in the 30's, but we've got a current example going on with the drug war. Think people won't build clandestine workshops to build firearms and ammunition if they were made illegal and there was significant demand? Then clearly you've never seen a BC bud operation built out of sunken cargo containers in the remote wilderness, tapped into transcontinental power lines for juice and utilizing advanced aeroponics growing technology to provide product to a discerning market. Or a Colombian drug sub, secretly welded together deep in the jungle for that matter. Black, white, or grey, the market is more powerful than the state, and woe be to the authoritarian who forgets it.

If the US is 'ahead' of Switzerland then what is there to copy? This is nothing but cherry picking.

Your article is 20 years old. More importantly, it only mentions ownership, not carrying a loaded gun in the public.

Exactly where is the 'widespread consumer demand' for guns? We are talking about criminals using gun as a tool for crimes. Most criminals don't really more than one gun and a gun last for ages.

There is a major difference for drugs, where the demand is perpetual - addicts need a fix everyday. That in turn means a drug dealer only needs a small number of reliable customers. A gun dealer needs to find more and more new buyers, and the chance of a secret leaking is proportional the square of people knowing it. In third world countries gun dealers rely on bribes to enable them sell gun semi-publicly.

@ Dox47

Would have replied sooner, but honestly gave up waiting after 4 or 5 more pages worth back and forth with alot of charachter attacks in the middle.

I will say that, my response was *mostly* a test of my own. I haven't read alot of your stuff till now, and though I know what its like to be the one bastion for a given idea or set there of on a given board over a long period of time, I was unfamiliar with your stance. My post was more an attempt at getting to know your arguments then anything else, thank you for responding ^^. And I aplogize for counter-trolling, or at least baiting, a response, but thanks regardless.

I agree that my hypothetical would, if attempted to be implemented at present, be a resounding failure, mores the pity.... If the solution to gun crime was easy, we'd have pressed that button long ago. I still believe the method I outlined could work, in the correct circumstances, but the thing is, as you have outlined, though I dont believe directly said yet, is that we're very very far beyond being at a set of circumstances where even that authoritarian system has little chance of affecting things regardless. Though I must admit, itd be hilarious to turn the news on one day to discover that Mexicans were jumping INTO Mexico for the chance at smuggling Guns into the US for the insane profit they could make.....

I would continue on the above paragraph though to say that, I believe were so far beyond a place of easy control in large part because of the proliferation of guns, and the lack of respect for life, civility, and guns themselves in our society. I agree that the latter is the bigger issue, but if we could engender even a little respect somewhere, such as with guns, then targeting them as a start, would make sense to me. What do you think? How do you propose we start making a change in our society? We will have to start small no matter what we do, and get bigger once success is demonstrated, and whatever it is will have to eventually become large enough to affect up to 300 Million people (Or more once you factor in time).....

Finally on the topic of my hypothetical, I disagree, at least in part, about the way a Firearms black market would work. Im sure one would spring up given my hypothesis, but remember, my hypothetical is merely a taxation, not a prohibition. And using the ACTUAL prohibition for an example is a poor comparison IMHO with bullets and guns (Admittedly the printable gun could change this in part, but it doesn't technically exist yet). It takes up to a week? I believe? of constant monitoring of a pressurized boiler system to brew enough hooch to serve drinks at a 1920's speak easy for a few days. Add a few more Stills or a few really big ones and you can keep production going full tilt. Further, in the 1920s, boiler steam is common as boilers are common house hold appliances, and the makings for liquor are cheap and easy to come by... You can buy most of what you need from a Hardware store and a Drug store, several different ones if you don't want to be easily tracked.... Please, describe to me how you would go about making bullets (As I believe this would be the crux of any blackmarket scheme in my hypothetical) undercover, in quantity, over time, undetected to fill a niche such as my hypothetical would create? And remember, you're making rounds/shells/cartridges for popular guns designed to fire machine pressed/manufactured rounds here, Primers, Powder, Shell, and Slug/bullet have to be made to certain specs or you're just creating faulty ammunition not worth much and burying first your customers then your business. Finally keep in mind that, in my hypothetical, I don't have to charge $1000 a bullet, I can just charge a nominally higher fee then the Black Market one and guarantee that the purchaser won't be busted by an undercover ATF agent.... This is asked for two reasons: one, I want to see your response. two: Everytime I scroll down too far, my browser scrolls down to your response to 01001011, and though I appreciate your frustration in the matter of defending your positions, I do think you were a *little* harsh with him/her, lol.

Next, I wanted to bring up the DMV/Vehicles Metaphor I made. I used the Current DMV as a model for my hypothetical, which is why I included it. I will say that, most DMV's are making giant leaps forward in reducing bureaucracy and wait times, from online applications, to computer stations available at locations to deal with more mundane issues like simple re-issuing of valid licenses or paying fees, etc etc etc. I honestly don't think, nor do I really wish, for an entire end to bureaucracy, but I agree the old format of 80's and 90's American paper bureaucracy was outrageous, and can only hope that the future continues to slim it down and make it more manageable...

Further, and a little off topic, I dont have a website to point you to, but Im quite sure that every state now has farily stringent requirements on CDL licensing now. The changes were made mostly in the past 5-10 years, and very quickly in most states from what Ive been reading and hearing (Though perhaps a few I haven't had any experience with may be holding out, though I wouldn't know which ones, feel free to do my research for me). Pretty much unanimously, to attain a CDL license in many states now, a perspective licensee has to attain third party training, which in most states takes the form of either a signed affidavit or state form of some sort from a company basically stating to the effect "We hereby declare that we've trained this driver to drive our rigs of this Class with these Endorsements and worth $100K a pop, and will vouch for him, please give him a license" (Notice the invokation of Material Value, our new state religion seems to be percolating itself even into our Licensing systems now, how much further down this rabbit hole are we going to go do you think? But again! Nother thread), or a letter from a CDL Training "School" (There are variations on this basic theme as I understand it from state to state). I know for a fact that WA, OR, CA, ID, and MN (Montana, too many damn M abbreviated states for me to remember for sure if I got that correct) have this basic setup, and Ive spoken with many many truckers from other states that have attested to similar measures in their home states. This was in large part an attempt at killing an old accepted practice of allowing "Third Party Testers" hired, trained, and supposedly regulated, by the state to sign off on people's licenses, only to find out after several particularly grisly multiple death accidents that Tester #XXX's idea of a "CDL Test" involved $50 and a paid for trip to a Ma & Pa Burger place he likes..... Im glad they stopped that practice, but basically requiring new Drivers to shell out ~$4,000 (Varies on location and availability of schooling), now to attain a basic CDL license, (Generally of any Sort, including the really small piddly ones, like C-P2), is a Bureaucratic mistake on the same magnitude of continuing to allow Higher Education costs to bubble IMHO..... But this is what happens when rich people decide they can make a profit from education, and that, as you said in regards to something else, is a whole other thread, lol.

I also wanted to add that, the website you linked to in your last post in this thread specifically states (again, a little in the defense of 01001100):

"Improperly Licensed" means a whole nother ball of wax then "Doesn't have one". I dont have numbers, again feel free to do my research for me, however I know that many many people that *have had* licenses, have had them revoked, suspended, or otherwise removed for a large variety of reasons, not the least of which are drug related issues (Which also tend to be a driving force in getting people to get behind the wheel illegally in the first place, and I know you and I agree that this is an issue that needs to be fixed, IE end the war on drugs, its silly, stupid, and a god awful waste of cash, though please do continue revoking licenses for drug/traffic related moving violations), Medical issues, outstanding tickets, or other legal issues (Fail to post bail, get your license revoked/suspended, for instance). Further, though Ill accept Numbers from Texas A&M, I can't say Im happy with the tone of that site. Targeting driving privileges for "Illegal Immigrants" just sounds like more nationalist hype at this point. I take a stance similar to you and gun control when it comes to immigration. Fix Immigration, and then we'll get into what to do about the illegals, otherwise the illegals will continue to fix immigration for us.... But again, a whole nother thread....




I agree with much of that. I could go a bit further and add things like what Sliqua-Jcooter said such as extending welfare (Or some form of social safety net) to more low income families, legalize prostitution (Make it a recognizable business, regulate it, and tax it), etc etc, but I realize that much of that probably doesn't appeal to you, be it Libertarianism, or the bureaucracy to go with such endeavors, or an inability to trust our government's current state with such responsibility, none of which I blame you for..... There are alot of things that cause people fear, worry, panic, desperation, anger, unhappiness....

Just a month or so ago a local town had about 3-4 individual shooting deaths as a result of "mere road rage" of one form or another. The town in mention is known to be a place full of low income as it was more industrialized before the economy crash (or more accurately before the outsourcing of industry) and now has lost many of the business' that drove the industry there....

3 weeks ago, I was at work, and a co-worker of mine went a few doors down the 7-11, and was assaulted by someone 2 rungs shy of Meth OD, he was 5 inches taller, and 1/2 the weight of my friend, with probably 1/3 the muscle, and my friend was *Just* able to hold on to him after alot of tussling before the cops could get there to deal with him. It was a very interesting experience, and one I have a feeling is being repeated daily if not hourly across the nation. I bring this up, even without a gun reference, because of the reference to the state of our society.....

Both of those examples are just recent cases of the end result of the same issues that have been creating the problems that this whole debate is really over. IMHO, the problems are getting worse. I will at this point, point out that, the longer we do nothing, the worse the problems will get, all of them. Indecision has become a tool for people that want to continue doing what they want to do. Get someone to be indecisive, and they're less likely to speak against you..... This only ends when people again wake up and decide to do something.... Of which there isn't alot of atm, and I find it horrendous.... again, another thread though....



I disagree with this. If only because I believe that the problem is sufficient enough that, anything that has a chance at working, I believe should be looked at. I believe there is an argument to be made that gun control could be used to help engender the next generation of gun owners with the respect and care that guns both deserve, and demand..... I do agree with you however that I haven't seen a plan yet that would promise to accomplish this, but I would also posit on that note we won't know until we try *Something*, even if its in a small trial area. I would also say that Im honestly not knowledgeable enough of the topic of guns or the culture around them (And I consider myself to be fairly, though definitely not thoroughly, educated on the topic), to feel in a position to successfully propose a workable solution, trial or not..... That also in part is what I was hoping to see from you I must admit. You seem intelligent and very well versed in Gun Law, Statistics, and Culture, and are at least aware of the underlying socio-economic-philosophic (YES, I DID JUST PUT ALL THREE TOGETHER!) reasons behind the situation, if not wholly experienced in them.....

So to put it bluntly, my counter challenge to you would be to answer this:
What do you propose we do about the current situation? Feel free to propose anything, Ill check back routinely for an answer. Im very curious to hear what you think might have a chance at turning the situation around.
-Feel free to link to any post or argument where you've already outlined such a propostion

Hope this has been interesting at least, Im pretty sure at least 2 people will read this, lol
Aldran

The interesting bit is that despite Norway having some of the strongest gun control laws in the world, it didn't prevent Behring Breivik from getting guns and shooting over 70 people. Of course, there could be an argument that if he had an AK-47, the death toll would have been even higher, but it seems like gun control laws have little effect on the people that actually misuse them.

There is an argument as to why certain types of ammo should be banned, armor piercing bullets come to mind, but for the most part its become very hard to defend strict gun control in lieu of recent events.

@Sliqua-Jcooter

Thanks for reading my posts and responding, or at least reading Dox's Posts and responding, lol. But since you quoted some of mine, I get to feel you've paid me some attention, so I hope you don't mind some attention back ^^.

To which I ask, can you name one nation that has anywhere NEAR the Domestic, Gun, or Assault Violence of the United States? I will also ask, isnt the whole point of this entire challenge to find even ONE Example of a different nation that CAN be compared to the united states? Unless you can satisfactorily answer those questions in a positive way for your statement, Id say that makes the US pretty much unique ^^;. Being that no other nation is similar enough that an effective comparison, in the realm of gun control or not, is being unilaterally accepted here from what I've seen (And honestly, I would agree that no other nation IS in fact particularly like the US. The closest we get IMHO is Canada, and even they have a national healthcare system and far less desperate (To use Dox's term) people, to the tune of something like 1/8th? Of the violent crime the US has).

I disagree that Australia is a good example too, for these reasons:
http://alldownunder.com/australian-fact ... lation.htm
So 1/15th the population of the US

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... endocument
Dated, but official, and Id wager since Australia doesn't have the immigration problems we do, about the same now as it was then.... So basically, their Largest group of minorities (Of which the number is split between three major different ethnicities) is less then 1/20th of their population.... Which means very little racial tension the way we have here in the US. That alone cuts down on ALOT of hostility.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States
"At 3.79 million square miles"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_%28continent%29
"3,305,000 sq. mi."
Gee, only 500 thousand square miles smaller, with 1/20th the population.... Not saying its all beach front or even desirable, but thats alot of free space out there to not have to fight over..... Or maybe too fight over. Just another big difference....

I could dig up more, but its 6:30 AM here and Im supposed to get up in 4 hours. Feel free to do more digging. I suggest these sites:
-http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/D9B2F953462E2C41CA256D39001BC332?opendocument

-http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics.aspx

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Compared to these places:
- http://2010.census.gov/2010census
(Omg, when I loaded this page, it popped up with an offer for a FREE CENSUS BUREAU PHONE APP!! now I TOO can choose to have an App Capable of being less entertaining then watching Paint Dry on MY PHONE!..... -.- Your tax dollars at work... though In all fairness it probably didn't cost much to make or distribute)

- http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=5

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_%28continent%29

I also suggest looking for a break down of wealth distribution amongst its 1/15th sized population. Id wager its nowhere near as skewed as ours.... Their bureau of statistics seems a good place to start..... Again, I think Canada makes a much better comparison in general, at least they're as racially and culturally diverse as we are, or almost so....

On a Side note, and this is to everyone here, I found this while I was digging up Links:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
I have a sneaky suspicion that this is probably where our "Australian Crime Stats Debate" got its start, 10 years ago... And though we now have been looking at real information, I thought bringing it up for sentimentality and perhaps a refresher in why one part of this debate seems to continually come up, would be a good idea....


See my above, recent, post to Dox, I could NOT agree with you MORE.... I agree whole heatedly with you sir, on these issues.... But were here to talk guns atm, so Ill leave this be for now....


Thank you sir for taking my hypothetical as it was, on the surface, meant, and demonstrating a willingness to compromise at the very least, even if we haven't found a working compromise to agree to, *yet*.... The willingness to compromise is what will keep us from destroying each other, and that is honestly worth more then the total of sum of every war humanity has ever fought.... IMHO..... Now if we can just keep our population down so we have room to be alone when we need it... Free condoms anyone?


I disagree in part. I agree that the swiss have alot going for them... But they also have a darker side too. They're incredibly racist as a nation in general from what Ive read and seen, more so then alot of the other Scandinavian nations, and thats saying something. Further, they're alot like Israel, or at least for males, since every male from *IIRC* from age 18 on is enlisted in their military until, again *IIRC* at least age 24? And considered to be in the reserves until age 42 or something like that? Something like that. Feel free to do my research for me, I used to know all this and just not remembering atm. Obscure Nationality facts was never a strong point for me anyway ^^;. The upside to this anyway is that hey, at least everyone knows how to, and what it means, to use a gun. The down side is that your population is probably pretty narrow minded sociologically, and thats hard to describe accurately through numbers, but there ya go....

The United States is arguably the single most diverse nation on the planet. we have large percentages of nationalities from every continent on the globe, and I *BELIEVE* we are the ONLY "Modern" nation that, the Ethnicity that founded it, is now a minority..... And thats not even counting illegals IIRC.... On top of that our culture is so frenetic and spread out, we never really agree on anything, other then that we pretty much want to be left alone to our own devices, which is another component rarely found in other "modern" nations. That tends to be an attitude found in Third world nations... Small wonder were on the bottom of the list for academic achievement amongst many other things amongst the "Modernized" nations....

At the end of this post, Im hoping that, through response to your post to me, Ive at least demonstrated that the US is unique in at least one regard to other nations. Our cultural attitude is becoming so laissez-faire that its small wonder that our national identity, our culture, and our society is just breaking apart at the seams.... Like everyones immigrant ancestors wanted to be here on promise that things were better here then wherever they left, but us, our descendants, are so tired of it all, we can't be bothered to work at it anymore.....

Btw, you free commerce nutters will probably like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
Why Im nice to people with opinions I can't stand Ill never know.... Wait, actually, yes I will, because Im going to encourage educating yourselves before you keep spouting nonsensical or ungrounded beliefs.... IT POSTS MORE LINKS, OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN! RAWR! (Yes, I know Im guilty of letting other people do my research, but at least I point out where it needs to be done, and I *try* to stick to that...)

Anyway, Entertaining, Interesting, Banal, s**t, IDC, I wrote it, Thanks for Reading it (If you did), not all of it was meant for JUST Slick Scooter, but there ya go.

Aldran

I was specifically referring to the fact that the US has a constitutionally recognized right to keep and bear arms. Which I clarified by saying "That's the one area the US is ahead of the Swiss.



And, in 20 years, nothing has changed that invalidates that article. Also, it does address the issue of carry, though not at great length. Carry of long guns is not prohibited by law in Switzerland, carry of handguns is allowed either a) for military training purposes, or b) with a license.

The male population of Switzerland is a militia. Not so in the United States. Prior to the civil war the U.S. military was based on a citizen militia but not since.

It is no surprise that Swiss men of military age carry arms openly.

ruveyn

Not saying it's surprising. Just saying the Government doesn't prohibit it - similar to the US.

Our second Amendment reflects the fact that our military capability originally was based on a citizen militia, not a professional standing army or conscription.

ruveyn

I wasn't trying to say that there were other countries in our exact shoes - however crime problems generally, and gun crime problems specifically - are not problems unique to the US, despite the widespread misconception that they are. Other countries have high crime, other countries have had crime problems in the past and have taken effective measures to decrease that crime, and other countries serve as a great example of what not to do to combat crime. I point to Switzerland as an example of the goal we should set for ourselves, Australia as an example of the kinds of things that would work to get us there, and Brazil as an example of what not to do.



Again, I wasn't suggesting that Australia was comparable to the US - simply that they had a crime problem very similar in scope (though not necessarily in scale) - and they took radical actions to reduce crime and largely they were effective.



My point is that the crime issue in the US is more heavily related to these societal issues than the proliferation of guns. Further, the Swiss article I linked to a few posts back contains some other initiatives that should be considered:

- Allowing and encouraging public and private schools to compete in target shooting events
- Allowing and encouraging shooting ranges to be built in/near urban areas

The goal is to let people become familiar with firearms and firearm safety and build a culture of responsible gun ownership.



Their military is a militia, so it is true every male does go through a period of military service - but it's nothing like the indoctrination that our military goes through. But the real point is that they have very low crime and very high gun ownership - and they are able to accomplish that because they have accepted responsible gun ownership into their culture, and they have a relatively high standard of living. If I really thouht Switzerland was better than the US - I'd probably live there instead of here.

And your point is what, exactly?

There is currently a large amount of gun owners who do just that. They take spent cartridges, bulk gun powder, and bullets, and run them through a press designed to reload them. It's not all that outrageous to assume that people couldn't do this from scratch, if necessary.



The root of this problem, however, is that there is no right to transportation - while there is a right to keep and bear arms. Licensing is inherently a mechanism for denying that right to people until the state deems them fit - and implementing licensing on guns and gun owners sets a dangerous precedence to treat other rights the same way.

Imagine, if you will, a law that says that in order to be a journalist - you have to be licensed by the government. If you think that's a ridiculous example, consider this: it would be incredibly easy to say "WikiLeaks isn't a journalist organization, because they don't have a license!" - and deny them the freedom of the press that they are entitled by the first amendment.



...and this is why I want to be able to carry a gun.

My statements are not arguments. On that note, "Done" is far from necessary and it certainly does not dispose of an individual's idea. So I'm afraid I will have to be more clear... if you find a way to identify a weapon BY ANY SINGULAR OR MULTIPLE MEANS that would (even as little as) force people to machine their own parts in order to circumvent the process, you've already statistically reduced the frequency of deaths. Sometimes you need to make implications from a few paragraphs, since most productive people have better things to do than argue about guns all day long...