Is America heading towards fascism?

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androbot2084
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13 Nov 2012, 10:46 am

For me the Libertarians have a compelling argument. Can one really legislate morality? You can write civil rights laws, but none of these laws can change a persons heart so there must be a better way. But it is a 2 way street. Libertarians insist that laws protecting property rights remain on the books and that these laws should be vigorously enforced.

ruveyn
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13 Nov 2012, 12:00 pm

RushKing wrote:

Private property is a violent cultural construct forced upon individuals. Ownership overland is as crazy as ownership of air. Capitalism is the complete opposite of liberty. I never said I want to dictate anyone. Why are you straw manning? It's the land owners that are doing dictating. Houses are for attended for personal use, the goods served at restaurants are not.

The underpants I have on at this moment is MY property and if you attempt to take them from me by force I just might get violent.

ruveyn

RushKing
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13 Nov 2012, 12:06 pm

adb wrote:

Please explain this statement. Private property is a fundamental part of individualism. Without private property, what is the value of the individual? Are you speaking purely of land ownership per your next statement?

Do you define yourself with property? You can't own yourself because you are yourself. All forms of property are theft and coercion, we need to figure out what forms of property are justifiable. Private property causes hierarchical relationships; which kills freedom and individualism.

adb wrote:

What's wrong with owning land or air? If I'm using a certain amount of land or air toward a productive end, should someone else be able to come and remove the efforts of my labor? I can understand that simply planting a flag and claiming ownership might be "crazy", but taking ownership over a natural resource in order to develop it seems entirely reasonable.

Monopolizing power over land and natural resources is not reasonable. I believe you should only own what you are using.

adb wrote:

Please explain this statement also. I don't see how capitalism restricts liberty, much less is a complete opposite.

Capitalism prevents individuals from using land they would otherwise be able to use. Capitalism forces people to live at the mercy of bosses and landlords.

adb wrote:

Yes, you did say you want to dictate. Your statement that "tyranny is tyranny, no matter how small it is" was in response to ruveyn's defense of a small business owner's right to choose who he or she serves. You are arguing that the business owner shouldn't have that right. This is dictating what another person does.

There is no straw man argument here. My example is a direct application of your argument with your own qualification

If you are a business with open doors, you should be serving everyone who walks in. Otherwise you steal the time of the individuals you refused to serve.

RushKing
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13 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

The underpants I have on at this moment is MY property and if you attempt to take them from me by force I just might get violent.

ruveyn

I don't want your underpants that's personal property.

ruveyn
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13 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

RushKing wrote:

Do you define yourself with property? You can't own yourself because you are yourself

All of us are the owners and guardians of our own bodies. Our time is ours except that which we sell or rent for some kind of compensation.

Property (i.e. possessions acknowledged to be held and controlled by their possessor) is absolutely necessary for human life. Property especially items taken from nature and not otherwise claimed is necessary to our existence. It is NOT theft.

ruveyn

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13 Nov 2012, 12:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Do you define yourself with property? You can't own yourself because you are yourself

but they are limited and some people take far in excess of what they will ever need,

those people do need to compensate the people they are preventing from getting what they need, especially if they are doing so from around the world.

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marshall
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13 Nov 2012, 12:17 pm

Seabass wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

I think Marx nailed this particular point in as much as this:

"But you communists wish to do away with private property! Scream the bourgeoisie in chorus. There is no need, for capitalism already has destroyed it, and continues to destroy it daily, for all but one tenth of the population".

Excerpt from the communist manifesto

That's like, Marx's opinion, bro. He was passionate though, I'll give him that. Unlike the current whishy washy communists we see today. There were injustices occurring in the system he saw around him, which he saw as capitalism. The thing is though, a true free-market economy, aka "capitalism", has never existed in the history of EVER. There are places that come close, like Honk Kong. You should look up how that city is doing, seems like a nice place to live. A bit close to that festering amalgamation of communism and corporatism, though.

A true free-market paradise has never existed just like a true communist paradise has never existed. How convenient. :roll:

Am I the only one who see's this parallel going on?

A clue to Marxists. A non-coercive communist paradise will never exist because of the existence of people who believe they should have the right to do whatever the hell they please even if it means stepping all over others and using their property rights to exploit others.

A clue to Libertarians. A non-coercive "free market" paradise will never exist for the exact same reason. Regulations are always needed to protect people and make people play fair. The problem is too many people are as*holes who believe it is their right to exploit others and treat others like s**t and they don't need physical violence to do it. The people who push for having no rules are the equivalent of bullies who think they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want, even if it includes pushing dangerous products, destroying the environment, and coming up with ways to unfairly game the system and screw everyone else.

ruveyn
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13 Nov 2012, 12:18 pm

Oodain wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Do you define yourself with property? You can't own yourself because you are yourself

but they are limited and some people take far in excess of what they will ever need,

And who are YOU to judge the needs of others. Have you died, gone to heaven and become Our Lord?

ruveyn

adb
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13 Nov 2012, 12:20 pm

RushKing wrote:

All forms of property are theft and coercion, we need to figure out what forms of property are justifiable. Private property causes hierarchical relationships; which kills freedom and individualism.

Please explain how property is theft and coercion. I really can't get my head around that concept.

Quote:

Monopolizing power over land and natural resources is not reasonable. I believe you should only own what you are using.

How are you defining "using"? If I'm farming the land, that's pretty obvious. What if I'm employing other people to farm land? What if I'm providing a housing service such as an apartment complex? What if I'm using land to hold a factory where I'm manufacturing shoes?

Also, does that apply to other property, such as a vehicle? What if I have two vehicles, and one pretty much just sits in the driveway?

Quote:

Capitalism prevents individuals from using land they would otherwise be able to use. Capitalism forces people to live at the mercy of bosses and landlords.

That didn't answer my question. Unused land is restricted by government, not by capitalism. And capitalism gives you the opportunity to become bosses and landlords -- how would it force you to live at the mercy of them?

Quote:

If you are a business with open doors, you should be serving everyone who walks in. Otherwise you steal the time of the individuals you refused to serve.

How am I stealing their time? If they ask for service and I say no, they should leave.

adb
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13 Nov 2012, 12:23 pm

RushKing wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

The underpants I have on at this moment is MY property and if you attempt to take them from me by force I just might get violent.

ruveyn

I don't want your underpants that's personal property.

But owning his underpants is a violent cultural construct forced upon him. What else are you going to do about it?

ruveyn
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13 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm

Both my underpants and my factory are MY personal property. I own both and I acquired them honestly.

ruveyn

RushKing
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13 Nov 2012, 12:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Do you define yourself with property? You can't own yourself because you are yourself

All of us are the owners and guardians of our own bodies. Our time is ours except that which we sell or rent for some kind of compensation.

You are your body. Ownership implys two separate objects.

ruveyn wrote:

Property (i.e. possessions acknowledged to be held and controlled by their possessor) is absolutely necessary for human life. Property especially items taken from nature and not otherwise claimed is necessary to our existence. It is NOT theft.

Great, I should be able to take from anywhere I want to survive than.

RushKing
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13 Nov 2012, 12:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Both my underpants and my factory are MY personal property. I own both and I acquired them honestly.

ruveyn

You do not physically use machinery at the factory, you do not own it.

marshall
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13 Nov 2012, 12:38 pm

:shaking:

androbot2084
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13 Nov 2012, 12:40 pm

The right to homestead was considered to also be a property right but the Libertarians will never recognize this.

adb
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13 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

The right to homestead was considered to also be a property right but the Libertarians will never recognize this.

Why would libertarians not recognize it? It's a use of land for productive purposes, even if it's just for yourself.

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