What do you think about abortion

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For me that is a more important argument than whether zefs are lumps of cells or humans. Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is slavery and reduces women to breeding machines.

What a terrible comparison. Abortion is not letting someone die, it is the action of terminating a life. It is not death by neglect, nor by omission, it is the literal termination of a pregnancy. That is why it is called an abortion and not a retraction.



Your position is predicated on the assumption that a human life can be the property of someone else. You have your slavery analogy precisely backwards.



What difference is there between a child that is born and one that is five minutes previous to being born? And spare me the rarity comeback, it is a non-sequitur to my question. If you can get appreciate that point, then you will understand why I give the benefit of the doubt to life.



But in all other aspects of life, not having these things does not make it permissible to murder you. Imagine you are in a vegetative state and I walk up and shoot you, I am still guilty of murder. The womb is, as is so often the case when it comes to pro-choice people, a literal zone of special pleading.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFfNUBypo2k[/youtube]
Edit: Added video and prose

In the philipones they eat thwm fertalized when its in embryonic state!

Wat about miscarriages do you think the mothers a murderer then?

When your out googling how to actually spell Philippines, a country of over 94 million people feel free to discover the concepts of mens rea and actus reus.

Every human life has a right to exist. You missed the point of what I was saying. Feminists are anti-life, anti-male.

Women should not have the final say it should be a decision for the father and the mother.

The carefree attitude of society makes me sick. The wanton disregard for innocent lives is appalling.

Killing in war is murder just the same. The United States would murder anyone who does not sign on to democracy and even force it upon other countries. War is big business and this country is run by big business. People need to open their eyes and realize America is a bully that pushes other countries around so it can force the American way on other countries. It is no wonder why people are trying to blow us up. Besides this country was built upon the blood of the innocent. Bloodshed is what this country represents. Always has, always will. I cannot live with knowing how children are being murdered by remote control drones. The collateral damage is not justifiable in the end. It is a sick world when those who profit from war go unpunished.

sorry for the typos i misselled em on my Android phone . [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LQl5qc1Yyc[/youtube] the delacacy is called balut!

But yeah what if the mother has a miscarriage is the mother still considered a murderer? I mean sometimes the body rejects the baby for certain reasons!

Unless a mother deliberately tries to induce a miscarriage, it is simply a failed pregnancy. Many women miscarry their first pregnancy. Pregnancy is a delicate physical condition which can be upset by many things which can result in the loss of the fetus.

Irrelevant, because a foetus five minutes previous to being born cannot legally be aborted.

In any case, I would argue that birth creates an emotional bond between baby and parent that is stronger than that between foetus and parent. Additionally, the comparison was not between a 9 month foetus and a newborn (I would agree that there is little moral difference between a mother killing a 9 month foetus and killing a newborn), but between an embryo and a person with autism.


Yes it does. There is constant murder of non-sentient beings. Plants and bacteria and farm animals are constantly being deliberately killed by human beings, and few people bat an eyelid. As soon as an embryo is aborted (still yet to see a relevant distinction between an embryo and a bacterium or alga, or skin cells for that matter) then people get up in arms because they are speciesist and think "human" life is worth protecting ahead of other life.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSnAWCbQm1w[/youtube]

It certainly is relevant, especially when it comes to the pro-choice position. If you say, and you seem to be so I commend you for it, that what we are dealing with here cannot be legally owned at that point, then being within the mother is not sufficient grounds for regarding it as the property of the mother. It then becomes a question of when human life satisfies our criteria of being alive. At this point, the concept a 'pro-choice right' is not nearly the logical absolute many of it's proponents think it is.



If it becomes a matter of degrees then the 'pro-choice' position being of sufficient utility to explain the situation. Rather, it becomes a matter of when we human life satisfies our criteria of becoming a member of our society. For myself, I give the benefit of the doubt to the life (although there are exceptions to that I would grant in situations of rape, incest and the health of the mother), because we simply do not know where that point is and 'viability' is a non-sequitur to the concept of something's right, once property is removed as the primary consideration.


Yes it does. There is constant murder of non-sentient beings. Plants and bacteria and farm animals are constantly being deliberately killed by human beings, and few people bat an eyelid. As soon as an embryo is aborted (still yet to see a relevant distinction between an embryo and a bacterium or alga, or skin cells for that matter) then people get up in arms because they are speciesist and think "human" life is worth protecting ahead of other life.[/quote]

We are not dealing with plants or bacteria, it is human life. With its own recognisable traits available early on. A person in a vegetative state still cannot be killed because the person is still a human life. As to speciesism, I would consider that an interesting topic, but not one for here.

In the case of a pregnant woman, she is the host to the organism that requires to grab her organs and energy to reach whatever potential it has. Even adding a risk of death to the woman.

So yeah, pretty much a pregnant woman can make that call. It is her body what is being used.




The consequence for an unwanted pregnancy is abortion. Irresponsible people would just not abort in fear of getting called evil or in fear of being ostracized. A responsible person would abort the unwanted baby. The social, emotional and moral cost of bringing an unwanted baby to this world just because of peer pressure is too much.

You are correct, some people want to believe there are no consequences for actions. And some people really want us to believe that going through with an unwanted pregnancy is a fun activity that will make you feel great and that everything will go on perfectly. The reality is the opposite. Bringing an unwanted person to this world is incredibly irresponsible. It would be uncertain that this unwanted person would have the appropriate care, or an appropriate family.

Exactly, hence why abortion exists as a choice not to.



For most people, men and women alike, they do want to have children *eventually*. It is just that the "when" and the "with whom" are questions that require many thought and reflection to get answered. A 18 years old woman is completely entitled to decide that she doesn't want to have children until about 10 , 20, 30 or 40 more years, whatever is biologically possible for her. Just because you don't want children until you are older and have more economical possibilities, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have sex. Sex is a good, healthy activity as long as you do it responsible. And responsive sex involves contraception, including abortion in case that contraception has failed.

Also, for some reason it seems that with these discussions, I have to constantly remind the other side that rape exists. Maybe you are a woman who don't want to have children until later in the future. And you even go with an abstinent life. Then comes a rapist and gets you pregnant. So it is perfectly possible that a woman who has made all the right choices is still left with an unwanted pregnancy. It would be inhumane not to allow her to abort.



Terrible advice. Recommending people to abstain only increases unwanted pregnancies and therefore, abortions.


Basically, even by sneezing you might be terminating a POTENTIAL LIFE. Why do you even care?

Oh you know what? The climate is a bit cold around here. I better get into some warm water or else MILLIONS of potential human beings currently living in my testicles COULD DIE.

It is pointless to care about things that COULD be. Specially when caring about them requires us to stop caring about ACTUAL people. The woman happens to be an ACTUAL human being, not a potential one, and as such she has basic rights. One of which is to decide what happens inside her own body.


Sure, and it is also great abortion is available in case the previous options fail.

In case of unwanted pregnancy, it is the most rational and responsible idea.



I advocate it , hence why I recommend unwanted pregnancies to be terminated by abortion as quickly as possible.




Plenty of consequences, hence why we should promote responsible behavior, including contraception (which includes abortion).



Giving the fetus (potential child, not a child) a life, even when it is unwanted would be the worst possible decision ever. Sure, maybe things will turn out well after all. But "things turning out well" is just a product of raw luck and does not change the fact it was a terrible decision.



Like when so-called pro-life dehumanize women by removing their basic rights so that they can be trumped by the rights of potential beings.


It is a life.

And so is pork. Just had Stromboli. Life tastes delicious.


Because they are actual living people (Fetuses can't be diagnosed with autism) and because letting them live does not require us to intrude and violate the rights of other people.

Whoah, this slippery slope was way too easy to deal with.

Apparently not, as I just trivially showed.

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Relevant:
http://www.marinarosemartinez.com/what- ... ually-had/

Oh sweet Jesus. Where's the puking emoticon?

Feminists are pro-people and pro-personal rights. A mother creates life and has the power to control that process, otherwise one's personal integrity is under threat. The extent of a father's involvement may be minimal, it's not his body that's involved, it's not his choice unless the woman wants to include him. I find the disregard for existing people's welfare appalling, and valuing people means we don't bring them into this world by accident, or regretfully. Innocence or guilt doesn't enter into it.

If you read what terrorist say about their reasons for attacking us, it's our support for Israel, and generally support for Democracy, as in East Timor, which they view as un-Islamic. I won't apologize for that. Islamists are bullies to their own people, especially women who they treat as property, as baby-making machines to be raped at will and the children sold off as "wives". The anti-abortion movement is all about controlling women, it's an aspect of totalitarianism and theocracy, and it has no place in a secular society.

Speaking of ludicrous arguments, this is a false dichotomy.

The early fetus is a collection of cells with human DNA. An entity that is alive but definitely not a person that deserves any rights , as it seriously fails plenty of conditions for that classification. The most important of them being that it hasn't even been born,.

How about instead of sharing how much you dislike these arguments you actually provide arguments of why they are wrong? Cause so far you have not demonstrated them to be wrong.



Non-sequitour.

So what?

You wouldn't have existed, your wonderful family would have adopted someone else. It is irrelevant.


This is a great argument FOR abortion! Not all orphans/kids put for adoption are because of unwanted pregnancies.

Not aborting an unwanted pregnancy would only increase the number of kids that are not adopted and are instead set to foster homes.

In effect, by battling against abortion, you, mr. selfish are denying the chance of tons of kids to find a loving family. Because with more unwanted kids getting available for adoption, there will be more kids that don't get adopted by a good family.

I think this needs more underlining: You were lucky. You are privileged , and your history is actually the exception to the rule.




ok... I guess...

But still, let us not deny basic human rights to women, ok?

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 03 Jul 2013, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.