You know you're a left-winger if...

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You're in Norway, I'm in the UK, why do you keep talking to me about America?

And answering a question with a question is prime weasel behaviour.

Apparently they deserve it and deserve to be taxed less too.

As long as they've paid for their stocks, they didn't steal anything. The world's economy is far from destroyed; we take smart phones, iPads, fast computers, flat screen televisions and all that for granted because it's never been stronger. You just don't wake up to headlines that say "Americans can still afford video game consoles", "The 1870-1890 economic recession, the stock market crash in 1927 and the oil crisis of 1973 is way worse than any economic crisis today" or "America is the only country in the world where someone with an easy degree like history can afford a Corvette". Likewise, you don't read in the newspapers how much more f*cked the Russians today are than the Americans or how much the post-communist countries who made the transition to capitalism (contrary to popular belief, Russia is not one of them) has grown during the recession.

Seems to me as if the UK and US got away fairly easily, just like everyone else who doesn't use Euro for currency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income

You seem to be stuck on a loop.

As mentioned, I am engineer for environmental development. Around here, as long as you are not department chief or something lame in a big company, you dont have that high differences between loans, specially for engineers. ^^ The loan I earn, I could easily have earned in another job, but then I could not have spend my time learning about my interests and learning a job I like. So for the benefit of earning money five years earlier, I would have the misadvantage of not spending this 5 years learning something I like, and additional had the gigantic mistake of doing the complete rest of my life something I am not interested in, because of me not having enough knowlege to do what I am interested in. If you want to waste your life doing most of the time, something you are not interested in, and that is so boring, that even hanging around and smoking is more fun to you, its your decision and your problem. I dont want to waste my life-time on stuff that bores me so much, that even standing bored around and smoking is more fun.

I agree that it was often a lot of stress and much to learn, but it was no crushing weight, it was an expectations to be free to do the rest of my life a job I like, if I manage to do so. Yes, maybe other people had 5 years less stress, but I think having the opportunity to do a job I like and that I am interested in for the rest of my life, is absolutely worth that five years. And I was not ruled by that, I chose it freely. About the costs, as long as you do good in school and have the qualities that are needed you get, according to the loan of the parents, public support. We dont want persons to sit in our school and universities, that have the most money, we want those that show the most interest and qualities. For those who offer money instead of interest and no qualities, private schools exist. So visiting public school costs you nothing and public university around 1000 EUR/year. Additional you have costs for learning materials or technical or laboratory cloths, like books and so on, but it is pretty common to use second hand books, or share them for people who earn less. In exchange it is expected from you to show effort and interest. Normally in each subject there are after some time major tests, that you need to do, to do further studies, and if you dont manage those, your out.

Wow, you have a flatscreen tax? So I pay tayes for stuff like good public schools for everyone, health insurances, official work projects if our undevelopment rates become to less, but we dont have any flatscreen taxes.

And why are leftwing people responsible if people decide out of the wrong reasons to study? Sorry, if I decide to study medicine, because I am interested in golden pools, instead of studying medicine, then its my fault that I think the subject sucks to me, and that those years of studying are wasted. I would have as well had the mental capacity to learn something that has an average 3x payment. But why should I, when I am not interested? 3 x times the earnage doesnt repay me, for me ruining my life by wasting it on something I am not interested to do. I wouldnt care if operating forklifts is easier then learning about algorithm, but if you have more fun/more interest doing so. And if you say that you know that working as substitute kindergarten teacher, gives you a good feeling and makes you happy, I would do that. Being happy doing something, is something that is needed to do it good. So if you are able to do a good job on somethings that is useful for society, I think you should do that.

You mentioned yourself, that if you are not interested in doing something, you rather hang around and smoke. So if someone is not interested in studying, because of not being interested into the subject, its quiet normal, to have no interest in learning about it. Thats nothing bad, and doesnt turn someone into a person, because every job that is useful for the society, and is well done by the person, because of him/her being interested in it, is worth equal in my eyes. If I do my work lazy, children in kindergartens can be damaged, just as a subsitute kindergarten-teacher has major impact on the development of my children, so I want him to be interested in his job and doing it well. If substitute kindergarten-teachers dont do their job right, I cant do mine, when I will have children. Just as operating an forklift is important, because we all need daily goods and they dont fly into trucks and storages. While when its about naildesigners or company Feng-Shui advisers... yop...so there are jobs that are not as useful for societys. ^^

I want discuss with youa bout that, because you definitly will know better about the political parties in your country. I simply wanna say that its about the parties themselves, not about them being conservative or democratic. So as example its the socialists causing for our universities and schools having very low costs. But its naturally for us, that this comes in exchange, with the expectation o showing effort and interest. We have money to support people, that are interested in medicine to become our doctors. But we dont have money to support 100.000 of people that want to become Doctor to earn golden pools, but show no interest into the subject and no effort.



The reason why he works his ass off, is forced to study ten hours a day (including weekends), is because of him chosing a subject he is not interested in. Wasting time on something you are not interested to do, always sucks. There are lots of girls dreaming of a great, big, fantastic wedding, and so they dont see that planning and organizing and work it needs, as something that they need to work their ass off, but as something that gives them fun. So for them its "Wuhu! Yesterday I could spend 12 hours in 10 shoe shops to find my perfect shoes! And today we can go 12 hours to find a the fitting accesoires! Wuhu! Great!" While I was forced to do so, because of the expectations of the mother in law. In the end I started smoking again, had a nervous breakdown/meltdown, and simply was absolutely done, because of me simply not interested in that s**t, so it made no fun to me, it was horror. I read as well the medicine books of my sister, that studied medicine...I did not feel bad about that, because i was not "forced to study that", but read it out of interest, so it gave me joy. So I know, that there are subjects that you really, really, really hate and where you "must force" yourself to spend the time learning time ("Facility energy calculation" gives me until now the puking.). But if that goes for the absolute majority of your subjects, so that none of studying them gives you enjoyment instead of the feeling to "be forced" to do that, I think you maybe simply have chosen the wrong interest. From my opinion, if you say yourself that you enjoyed to be an apprentice kindergarten-teacher, and that you are good with teaching childs, whats about teacher-studyings or "professional education specialists" (however that is called in english). There are so many ways to work with children and combine that with your ability to acchieve knowledge, why not do that if you know that you like that? Whatever job you do, you will do it for the rest of your life and being forced to spend a major part of your lifetime on it. No money will be able to exchange you that. And being a professional kids educator is a good useful job for society, so why the hell do you torture yourself with stuff you hate? Its not only about now, but if chemistry and circuits f***s you up now, and you really need that for your job, you wont get rid of it, but being forced to work and learn about that the rest of your life.

Because of my parents not being rich, I needed to work during holidays and free time and so on. So it was ok doing that jobs for me for a certain amount of time. But being forced to do that jobs I am simply absolutly not interested in for the rest of my life, simply felt like horror. No money ever can exchange me that.

Hardly anyone "earns" 100.000 dollars a year in the meaning, that what he alone is doing by his own works hand, brings his company so much more benefit, that after they reduce their own company costs, they can pay him out of that benefit, he gave the company by his own hand works, 100.000 Dollar. Normally a whole company earns that money by all involved people doing their work, and so causing the companys benefit, that is sadly often unfair shared, because of some people thinking that their work was more important then these of others. Or because they think that they need to be refunded to go studying, when they didnt want to go studying. ^^

Sorry, if there are two people that need to earn the same amount of money a different amount of time, then its not the person that needs to work more to earn the same money, that is lazy and greedy. You are pointing on some worker smoking and doing pauses from now and then. Dont you think I can as well point on a similar percentage of academics, wasting time, using their skills to declare that time wasting into "brainstorming" and other bullshit-Bingo words? I mean do you think the therm "Bullshit-Bingo" made it into normal speech, because of "meetings of high importancy" that are simply an excuse for some self-esteem manager wackos, clapping themselves on the shoulder and agreeing on each other how important they are, while drinking coffee and eating sandwiches, are such rare occasions?

I mean there is a reason, why invitations to such meetings are often negated with the words: "Sorry, I got too much work to do."

Only because of normal workers not being academic trained to declare their pauses by wordbashing into "meetings of intellectual exchange of ideas for the companies benefit" it doesnt change the fact that its simply the same, only with them paying themselves for the sandwiches. Not to mention lot of people that are officially paid for doing nothing like "motivational coaches", and other nonsense jobs based on people doing nothing of an physical benefit to the company, but being trained on university to convince people it would be otherwise. Sorry, maybe its because of me being Asperger or because of me being technician, but all that pseudo-esoteric nonsense wackos are in my eyes simply professional chief-asscreepers, stealing with their "earnings" benefit that should have gone to the one, that are in reality creating a companys benefit: The ones that do the work.

Guys who operate forklifts and other heavy machinery *are* working hard; although they're not working their brains as much, their bodies are being literally worn out by the vibrations of the machinery that they're operating. Back problems, for example, are not unusual for these guys at relatively young ages (30's and 40's) becuase their spines take so much vibration.

Someone like a garbage collector arguably should be paid way more than a speculative investment banker, based on the good he does for society as a whole.

The person who earns a lot of money has a responsibility to pay back the society that facilitated them making lots of money.

I haven't achieved anything thanks to the government. Pretty much anything that's good in Norway is because engineers and the North Sea. Without engineers, Norway would be nothing.

A citizen is required by law to pay the taxes levied upon him. If a person accomplishes a great deal it is not clear how much of his product is due to "society" and how much is due to his own talent and effort.

The most any of us owe to "society" is our share of the cost of police and military protection and the maintenance of the laws.

I well governed society makes it possible for a peaceable person to accomplish as much as his talent and effort will produce. So for the peace and quiet we all owe paying a share. For any additional wealth we gain, that is OUR doing, not society.

ruveyn

You forgot schooling, transportation systems, communication systems, a clean water supply, sewage systems, safe food to eat, minimal workplace safety requirements, trade and copyright protection, and patent protection... A progressive tax system is the most fair, this was illustrated a long time ago by Thomas Paine.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came.

This is putting the matter on a general principle, and perhaps it is best to do so; for if we examine the case minutely it will be found that the accumulation of personal property is, in many instances, the effect of paying too little for the labor that produced it; the consequence of which is that the working hand perishes in old age, and the employer abounds in affluence.

It is, perhaps, impossible to proportion exactly the price of labor to the profits it produces; and it will also be said, as an apology for the injustice, that were a workman to receive an increase of wages daily he would not save it against old age, nor be much better for it in the interim. Make, then, society the treasurer to guard it for him in a common fund; for it is no reason that, because he might not make a good use of it for himself, another should take it.


Vast wealth inequalities do not make a peaceful society. They make a wealthy elite who use that wealth to secure political power and arrest upward mobility, and a much larger and poorer majority who resents this influence.

Actually a great deal of what makes a person successful is a direct result of society. The educational system that a society is willing to support goes a long way to creating a pool of educated peers whose ideas and contributions help to uplift any one individual. The heath care system that a society is willing to support helps to ensure a population that has the vitality to work. The talent that a person has and the effort they can contribute ARE direct results of a society that supports education and well being.

If we take a "every man for himself" approach and make no effort to support those who have not grown up in advantageous circumstances then we are left with a small population that is well educated and healthy and a large population that is ignorant and weak. With a smaller pool of educated people, we have a smaller pool of good ideas that a person can work with. Promoting the health and education of everyone improves the lives of the successful as well as those less fortunate. If we don't support the weakest in society, even the strongest suffer.

Let's not forget that you can have the best business in the world, but if no potential customers have disposable income then you're not going to sell anything.

And let's also not forget the role played by what might as well be lady luck. A large proportion of new businesses fail to get off the ground, often inexplicably. A well known example is the restaurant business. Of course, the actions of society and the business owner can both impact a business' survival chances, but often what breaks a restaurant can be totally beyond the control of the owner- major roadworks at a crucial time, a takeaway serving the same cuisine opening next door, a recession, an employee who comes to work after a bad day, a grouchy food critic...