God doesn't seem to exist!

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Oldavid
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06 Jun 2015, 4:56 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

I will not look around for "you know a maths paper, or a physics paper outlining how the accepted understanding of entropy driving complexity is wrong"

No of course you wont, obviously maths has nothing to do with nature, it shows us nothing and logically fallacious analogies about housewives are all that is needed.

Once again you have demonstrated that you are either not prepared to or are unable to support you claims with anything even remotely resembling empirical evidence.

Oh and btw energy applied to non biological systems also provides order, so your personal attack laden example of morphology is yet another logical fallacy.

Does not address the issue.

You try to reduce science to empiricism in order to avoid the implications of easily demonstrable by experiment, reliably repeatable always and everywhere, observations of reality. Yet you continue to didactically assert fantastic speculations that have never been observed (and known laws of nature say are impossible) as if they were "facts" of "empirical science".

Arty wrote:

Oh and btw energy applied to non biological systems also provides order

Not even the slightest attempt to justify with examples or mechanisms or any real observations, even this glib assertion.

Then, of course, there is the good ole reliable evasion whereby any criticism of your preposterous ideology is evaded with a whimpering cry of "personal attack".

It would be interesting to know if there is anyone around here who actually acknowledges an objective reality at all.

Janissy
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06 Jun 2015, 5:16 am

Lintar wrote:

If material reality is all there is, if we have no free will, determinism predominates from the lowest order of reality to the highest, and who we are is basically accounted for by what happens in our brains, then you have no choice but to accept that your - for example, daughter - is nothing more than a pre-programmed, DNA-determined automaton, a bag of complex chemistry with no will, purpose, or ultimate meaning. To pretend that life has purpose or meaning, or that lives actually matter, or that certain things are right and wrong, whilst also believing what I have outlined above, is inconsistent at best, and downright delusional at worst.

You made an unwarranted leap here. "If material reality is all there is" does not imply we have no free will and determinism predominates.

But in any case, let's drop the materialism label you have attached to me and all other atheists because it is clearly coming with some baggage I am not even aware of, having never studied it.

Here is what I believe: Everything that happens can be accounted for by laws of the natural world. Do not try to swap in material for natural. They are not the same.

With that out of the way you can drop the idea that if I am an atheist I must also be a determinist and disbelieve in free will. There is a giant gap between determinism and not accepting the influence of hormones and neurotransmitters. Free will fits pretty easily in that giant gap.*

*Hormones, neurotransmitters and other aspects of neurobiology influence what we think and do but certainly not to the extent that we have no free will.

Grebels
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06 Jun 2015, 6:16 am

“Einstein, don’t tell God what to do.” – Neils Bohr (disputed, but awesome)
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... t-mystery/

Arthur, Einstein was defintely in favour of mystery. David Bohm and John Wheeler were Buddhists. There were among the worlds foremost scientists of their time. Sorry I'm not bothering to find a good source, but it is well known.

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06 Jun 2015, 6:19 am

Way too late for an edit of above post (is the window 30 seconds?) so I'll put it here:

A google search has found a better term for my point of view than materialism (which seems to have all sorts of baggage attached to it). That term is naturalism and more specifically methodological naturalism, which is an approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_%28philosophy%29

Methodological naturalism, parsed away from metaphysical naturalism can't be confused with materialism and also gets away from any "you must believe X" declarations because it is an approach to acquiring knowledge rather than an absolute statement about what is and what can never be. It is entirely possible that some things currently labeled supernatural may eventually be found to have natural causes. But I'm not going to accept them now just in case they might someday be proven natural.

Quote:

Methodological naturalism is said to be concerned not with claims about what exists but with methods of learning what nature is. It is claimed to be strictly the idea that all scientific endeavors—all hypotheses and events—are to be explained and tested by reference to natural causes and events, though by definition it adopts a bias against the supernatural by ruling out such possibilities in advance. The genesis of nature (for example, by an act of God) is not addressed. This second sense of naturalism seeks only to provide a framework within which to conduct the scientific study of the laws of nature. Methodological naturalism is a way of acquiring knowledge. It is a distinct system of thought concerned with a cognitive approach to reality, and is thus a philosophy of knowledge. Studies by sociologist Elaine Ecklund suggest that religious scientists in practice apply methodological naturalism. They report that their religious beliefs affect the way they think about the implications - often moral - of their work, but not the way they practice science

This approach allows for atheist,theist,agnostic,pantheistic etc. etc. beliefs while also dictating how scientific knowledge is gathered. Thus it is in line with any theistic things Bohr or Einstein said (per Grebels above). It is also in line with calling God a cultural construct, as I did upthread.

Last edited by Janissy on 06 Jun 2015, 6:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

DentArthurDent
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06 Jun 2015, 6:22 am

Grebels wrote:

Yet another strawman, and a quote taken wildly out of context. The quote is Bohr's response to Einstein rebuke of the uncertainty principle when he said "god does not play dice" and before you jump on this and claim Einstein believed in god, trust me when I say I can provide you with pages of evidence that he did not. However Max Planck it would appear did, but so what, this shows the human need for a creator, because great minds have faith in creator does not make it so, or give it credibility beyond belief.

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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 06 Jun 2015, 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Janissy
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06 Jun 2015, 6:31 am

Just for clarity, applying a methodological naturalist label to myself does not mean I am considering the possibility that God did it. I'm not. The term "God" has so much cultural baggage that even considering it drags along all that baggage. I don't just mean specific religious traditions, I mean the very idea that there is an entity. Our conception of "entity" is so bound up in what fits in our human brains that using it is pointless for discovering the truth.

I think it's better to just go with what we can actually figure out (within the limitations of our human brains) and let that knowledge pile up.

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06 Jun 2015, 6:46 am

Oldavid wrote:

Arty wrote:

Oh and btw energy applied to non biological systems also provides order

Not even the slightest attempt to justify with examples or mechanisms or any real observations, even this glib assertion.

Here is an example:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/collision-theory-how-chemical-reactions-occur.html

Quote:

In order for a chemical reaction to take place, the reactants must collide. The collision between the molecules in a chemical reaction provides the kinetic energy needed to break the necessary bonds so that new bonds can be formed.

Sometimes, even if there is a collision, not enough kinetic energy is available to be transferred — the molecules aren’t moving fast enough. You can help the situation somewhat by heating the mixture of reactants. The temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules; raising the temperature increases the kinetic energy available to break bonds during collisions.

"new bonds formed" is order

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06 Jun 2015, 7:15 am

I agree that the concept of God carries so much cultural baggage. It is small wonder that people will say that God is only a concept. I think it is necessary to get away from that. Jesus (John Ch10 V0) says "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Think about a belief without all the baggage, which is nowhere spoken about in The Bible.

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06 Jun 2015, 7:32 am

Quote:

Yet another strawman, and a quote taken wildly out of context.

Sorry, that quote was just too good to miss.

I do ask you to consider that there are places where the logical human mind cannot go. That may be enough to convince you they do not exist. I look to go beyond those places, which are in the realm of spiritual experience.

Oldavid
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06 Jun 2015, 8:22 am

Janissy wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Arty wrote:

Oh and btw energy applied to non biological systems also provides order

Not even the slightest attempt to justify with examples or mechanisms or any real observations, even this glib assertion.

Here is an example:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/collision-theory-how-chemical-reactions-occur.html

Quote:

"new bonds formed" is order

I am very familiar with junior school chemistry. Both endothermic and exothermic reactions are entropic and are examples of the natural order not a contradiction of it.

Phooee! You must be very accustomed to bluffing your way around amongst the naïve and ignorant to think I'd fall for that.

aghogday
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06 Jun 2015, 8:27 am

Grebels wrote:

Quote:

Yet another strawman, and a quote taken wildly out of context.

I live 'IN' 'those' 'spiritual' 'places'.

Sad that those who restrain their lives

in mechanical cognition cannot go.

But even science shows why this is so.

And it's totally useless to try to explain this
to folks who never ever try to go 'there'.

Anyway, oh boy, are they missing out
on what they do not believe in; as the very
process of non-belief takes one to a prison of life..

I choose free with relative human free will; not all
folks develop

THAT; SADLY enough..

Those who seek find;
Those who do not;
do not;
It's like 1 plus 1.

Where one never finds
the
'other'.

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Grebels
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06 Jun 2015, 9:05 am

Hi Fred, the spiritual is where I've found life and a life.

Oldavid
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06 Jun 2015, 9:15 am

Grebels wrote:

Yes, Grebs, but surely the advantage of being 'Spergic is to cut through the "cultural baggage" and home in on what it all means, really. God is, indeed, a concept; for without a concept it is entirely meaningless. Everything is meaningless without a concept. Even the word rabbit is meaningless without a concept of what a rabbit is.

"More abundant life" is entirely incomprehensible to a person who insists that they are just an accidental pile of chemicals except as an invitation to hedonistic indulgence.

Anyhow, I'm seriously considering that this place is just a playground for irrational egomaniacs worshiping contemporary fads; not a suitable habitat for a realist.

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06 Jun 2015, 9:44 am

Grebels wrote:

Hi Fred, the spiritual is where I've found life and a life.

Smiles; me too; I find life in the Spiritual realm; full life now;
and I am sick and tired of inviting folks to such a wonderful
place they cannot possibly go; I should have known better;
but I for one do know that there are no limits in
this life, except for the one's
folks impose
on their own
self.

That is something
no other person can control;
but is a truly self-imposed hell
for many folks, including myself now
in what I can THANK GOD finally call

the distant past; that is no longer
a reality of LITERAL human hell

for me..

Smiles, and bless you FRIEND..

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Janissy
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06 Jun 2015, 12:23 pm

Oldavid wrote:

Janissy wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Arty wrote:

Oh and btw energy applied to non biological systems also provides order

Not even the slightest attempt to justify with examples or mechanisms or any real observations, even this glib assertion.

Here is an example:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/collision-theory-how-chemical-reactions-occur.html

Quote:

"new bonds formed" is order

Who said anything about entropy or contradicting the natural order?

DentArthurDent said 'energy applied to non-biological systems also provides order'.

You asked for an example of that assertion. Chemical bonds being formed is an example.

Oldavid
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06 Jun 2015, 2:56 pm

Janissy wrote:

Ah!! ! Nonsense!! !

A stone falling from a height does not "provide order" it obeys the order.

Carrying a stone up a ladder so you can drop it also obeys the order known as entropy. Only part of the energy put into lifting the stone is recouped in its fall. Same applies to chemistry. But you're not the slightest interested in the facts because they are inconvenient to your irrational ideology.

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