27 Mar 2021, 5:05 pm
naturalplastic wrote:
Changing the "black sheep" rhyme is over reach.
A better comparison with the Giant would be "eanie meanie minie moe, catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollars let him go."
Originally the "tiger" was "n****r".
Racism, and Jim Crow, are a recent painful memory. So its necessary to change the rhyme.
But the ethnic wars between Scots and English are in the distant past.
Though I do remember, as a child, being confounded as to the WHAT Jack's nationality had to do with anything? Its not made clear that he is English the beginning of the story, and its not obvious what his being English has to do with anything in the story. In fact it wasnt until reading this thread that I knew "English as opposed to WHAT? American? French?Chinese?. Okay ..so now I finnally know that its "English" as opposed to "Scottish".
That figures. A lot of Elizabethan era politics was secretly lampooned in rhyme, and is still preserved like bugs in amber, in modern nursery rhymes. Humpty Dumpty was a big oversized cannon commissioned by the king of England that was mounted on a castle wall, and it blew up, and "all of the kings horses, and all of the kings men couldnt" put it back together again.
A better comparison with the Giant would be "eanie meanie minie moe, catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollars let him go."
Originally the "tiger" was "n****r".
Racism, and Jim Crow, are a recent painful memory. So its necessary to change the rhyme.
But the ethnic wars between Scots and English are in the distant past.
Though I do remember, as a child, being confounded as to the WHAT Jack's nationality had to do with anything? Its not made clear that he is English the beginning of the story, and its not obvious what his being English has to do with anything in the story. In fact it wasnt until reading this thread that I knew "English as opposed to WHAT? American? French?Chinese?. Okay ..so now I finnally know that its "English" as opposed to "Scottish".
That figures. A lot of Elizabethan era politics was secretly lampooned in rhyme, and is still preserved like bugs in amber, in modern nursery rhymes. Humpty Dumpty was a big oversized cannon commissioned by the king of England that was mounted on a castle wall, and it blew up, and "all of the kings horses, and all of the kings men couldnt" put it back together again.
I remember the eenie meanie mo that was definitely racist.
“ If he hollers make him pay fifty dollars every day.”
27 Mar 2021, 5:16 pm
27 Mar 2021, 5:44 pm
27 Mar 2021, 6:00 pm
27 Mar 2021, 6:03 pm
27 Mar 2021, 6:55 pm
27 Mar 2021, 7:24 pm
Redd_Kross wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
But the ethnic wars between Scots and English are in the distant past.
Not if you're Scottish, resentment of the English is still an ingrained national trait.
Only in Scotland. If you go to the colonies there has been so much mixing. My brother-in-law is born in England and is a Geordie but grew up in Australia and his family are a mix of Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English.
He identifies as irish but in Ireland he's considered English
Scottish Australians identity vanishes within one generation.
27 Mar 2021, 10:35 pm
Nursery rhymes don't always make sense. As I kid I never really delved into the dark historical meanings of nursery rhymes (otherwise I probably would have been traumatized). I mean, like the rhyme:
Hey diddle diddle
The cat and the fiddle
The cow jumped over the moon
The little dog laughed
To see such fun
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
I mean, what the hell is that supposed to mean? 
28 Mar 2021, 4:39 am
Joe90 wrote:
Nursery rhymes don't always make sense. As I kid I never really delved into the dark historical meanings of nursery rhymes (otherwise I probably would have been traumatized). I mean, like the rhyme:
Hey diddle diddle
The cat and the fiddle
The cow jumped over the moon
The little dog laughed
To see such fun
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
I mean, what the hell is that supposed to mean?
Hey diddle diddle
The cat and the fiddle
The cow jumped over the moon
The little dog laughed
To see such fun
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
I mean, what the hell is that supposed to mean?
This nursery rhyme has a coded meaning, During the middle ages the church launched a campaign against indigenous culture and knowledge linked to pre-chrisitan times under the guise of weeding out witches and warlocks (called the inquisition). Indigenous knowledge of astronomy was associated with star cults and paganism. So some clever person put the name of the most important star constellations into a children's rhyme (hey diddle diddle) so the knowledge could be passed down and not lost.
OutsideView
Veteran
Joined: 4 Oct 2017
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,022
Location: England ^not male but apparently you can't change it
28 Mar 2021, 5:57 am
naturalplastic wrote:
Changing the "black sheep" rhyme is over reach.
A better comparison with the Giant would be "eanie meanie minie moe, catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollars let him go."
Originally the "tiger" was "n****r".
Though I do remember, as a child, being confounded as to the WHAT Jack's nationality had to do with anything? Its not made clear that he is English the beginning of the story, and its not obvious what his being English has to do with anything in the story. In fact it wasnt until reading this thread that I knew "English as opposed to WHAT? American? French?Chinese?. Okay ..so now I finnally know that its "English" as opposed to "Scottish".
A better comparison with the Giant would be "eanie meanie minie moe, catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollars let him go."
Originally the "tiger" was "n****r".
Though I do remember, as a child, being confounded as to the WHAT Jack's nationality had to do with anything? Its not made clear that he is English the beginning of the story, and its not obvious what his being English has to do with anything in the story. In fact it wasnt until reading this thread that I knew "English as opposed to WHAT? American? French?Chinese?. Okay ..so now I finnally know that its "English" as opposed to "Scottish".
We've got a toy that sings "Baa baa sheep sheep" instead.
In the 80s we were singing "catch a tiger" but my mum says it was the racist version when she was a kid (50s/60s).
Growing up in England, "blood of an Englishman" just made sense to me so I never really thought about it until now. The thing that always bothered me is why it's not "Fe fi fo fan" so it actually rhymes with "Englishman".
Biscuitman
Veteran
Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,674
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers
28 Mar 2021, 2:14 pm
29 Mar 2021, 2:23 am
29 Mar 2021, 2:33 am
29 Mar 2021, 2:56 am
29 Mar 2021, 3:30 am
Biscuitman
Veteran
Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,674
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers
29 Mar 2021, 3:49 am
