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War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:31 am

carlos55 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pay attention to Magz, comrades; she and her family have live through the Cold War AND Soviet rule.

Anything she says about either one can be trusted.


I accept the bad things the Russians did at the start of WW2 to Poland and during the Cold War.

But at the end of the day if a nuke hits your city and kills many in your family or if your given just a few days to live because you’ve had a lethal dose of radiation will you think im glad we expanded NATO to Russia’s border and we to war

Or

I wish we just found a way to all get on


Putin has a choice in not causing a nuclear holocaust. 8)



magz
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18 May 2022, 2:35 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I am still skeptical if this a price worth paying and I think many Russians living in Ukraine have a right to say that they also feel threatened by groups like the Azov militia (can we blame Putin 100% for everything? the answer is always more complicated).
And we shouldnt make enemies with people like Jeffery Daumier, Ted Bundy, and Jack the Ripper, because all of that police work costs the taxpayer money? Russia is the aggressor. Russia messing up the world economy. And Russia is creating its own enemies. "We' arent doing it.
And we should drop all the rape cases because it's only promoting hate, while the the truth is always more complicated?
Show Spoiler
"She provoked me!"
And rapists can be valuable businessmen, we shouldn't damage our economy for their little spoils?

Stop. Victim. Blaming.
I am not victim blaming. I am saying listen to both sides.

Even if it's been proven beyond any doubt that one of these sides lies in the face of the truth while murdering, raping and looting?

Those international investigations are being invited by Ukrainian side for a good reason. The truth is not in-between. It is where it is. So it's important people from outside can get to it.


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Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:35 am

magz wrote:
Sweden and Finland are expressing with action, what they think about "expanding NATO to Russia’s border"'s risk-benefit balance in the face of current threats...


pootin has been so weakened by the war in Ukraine that he really can't do anything significant to Finland and/or Sweden.
Some might consider what they are doing as opportunism.

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Kudos. :thumright:



Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:38 am

Fnord wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.
The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic.

Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends.

The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.[/color]


Damn, do *I* know that feeling! 8O
That is why I have such a profound affinity with Ukraine. 8)



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18 May 2022, 2:41 am

magz wrote:
Even if it's been proven beyond any doubt that one of these sides lies in the face of the truth while murdering, raping and looting?

Those international investigations are being invited for a reason. The truth is not in-between. It is where it is.


There will be a call for an international investigation into war crimes against Russian soldiers. But I am unsure this will amount to anything given there are fairly reliable accusations against Chinese camp soldiers systematically raping Uygher women. China and Russia are highly militarised authoritarian regimes and they have nuclear weapons. Not sure how far you can push them?



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18 May 2022, 2:42 am

Pepe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pay attention to Magz, comrades; she and her family have live through the Cold War AND Soviet rule.

Anything she says about either one can be trusted.


I accept the bad things the Russians did at the start of WW2 to Poland and during the Cold War.

But at the end of the day if a nuke hits your city and kills many in your family or if your given just a few days to live because you’ve had a lethal dose of radiation will you think im glad we expanded NATO to Russia’s border and we to war

Or

I wish we just found a way to all get on


Putin has a choice in not causing a nuclear holocaust. 8)


About as likely as Australia attacking China



Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:45 am

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.
The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic.

Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends.

The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.


Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about Iran or North Korea? So why is there an organization, NATO, with sole purpose JUST to oppose Russia and not any of those other countries?

So maybe Putin is right in being offended that Russia is being discriminated against. Because it certainly looks that way.


NATO will only act defensively as an alliance if attacked by Russia?
Boy, that sounds stupid. 8O
Silly alliance. <facetiousness or satire, your choice> :mrgreen:



magz
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18 May 2022, 2:45 am

cyberdad wrote:
There will be a call for an international investigation into war crimes against Russian soldiers. But I am unsure this will amount to anything given there are fairly reliable accusations against Chinese camp soldiers systematically raping Uygher women. China and Russia are highly militarised authoritarian regimes and they have nuclear weapons. Not sure how far you can push them?

Not "will be". There is. There are plenty of international investigators around Kyiv right now, securing evidence of the horrors there.
The problem with China is, they don't let international observers in. Neither does Russia. On the other hand, Ukraine invites them.
That's another reason why reconquering their territories is so important. So the world knows*.

_____________
*Being a descendant of a man who narrowly escaped Katyń, I know very well the threat of Russians silencing their victims and the world turning a blind eye on it. We can't let it happen again and again. I am not an Ukrainian but I must speak out before they come for me.


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Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:46 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pay attention to Magz, comrades; she and her family have live through the Cold War AND Soviet rule.

Anything she says about either one can be trusted.


I accept the bad things the Russians did at the start of WW2 to Poland and during the Cold War.

But at the end of the day if a nuke hits your city and kills many in your family or if your given just a few days to live because you’ve had a lethal dose of radiation will you think im glad we expanded NATO to Russia’s border and we to war

Or

I wish we just found a way to all get on


Putin has a choice in not causing a nuclear holocaust. 8)


About as likely as Australia attacking China


Rather ambiguous, but I'll take a punt-in.
Agreed. 8)



Pepe
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18 May 2022, 2:50 am

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.
The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic.  Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends.  The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.[/color]
Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about . . .
What-about-ism again?  Try forming an argument based on relevant facts and logical reasoning instead, and leave these fallacious derailing methods at the pub, okay?

:roll:


Call me odd...
Show Spoiler
...most people do...

But I don't have a problem with "Whataboutism".
"Curious". 8)



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18 May 2022, 2:57 am

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
No matter how much we are all sitting around the campfire singing Kumbayah for the Ukrainians, making enemies with the Russian state only serves to create economic instability for the entire world.

Since the hot war was initiated by Russia first, the problem is to define what is called "making enemies with the Russian state".
This topic even deserves to start a new thread, and a discussion with sufficiently diverse opinions would require more people from different citizenships.

But how is this different from China invading Tibet or the US invading Hawaii, Philippines or Grenada? I realised some times has elapsed since those events but the US would refer to Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto rico, California and Texas as "internal" matters even though the native people never had a say.

In 1951, the People's Republic of China was not even recognized by most countries.

The Republic of China (Beiyang government, Nanjing government) also never recognized the sovereignty of Tibet, and had three wars with the Tibetan regime.
The current relationship between the Taiwan government of the Republic of China and the Tibetan government in exile seems to be somewhat delicate.

As far as I know, compared to many other separatist forces, the separatist faction in Tibet has made a considerable international voice and is not lacking in support.


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Pepe
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18 May 2022, 3:03 am

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?
Cry us a river.

"It's not fair!" is usually spoken by those on the losing end of a conflict or contest, and who have no other recourse than to lamely question the fairness of that conflict or contest.

Bullies also cry "It's not fair" when they are told to stop beating up their victims.[/color]


But moit, he is right.
It ain't fair, but "Might makes right" has never been a question of fairness.
It is part of the profanity of life.
The CCP is employing this fundamental Truth, also. 8O
It is human nature and has worked throughout the ages and across all demographics. :|

Shame on Russia.
Shame on Amuuria.
Shame on The CCP. 8)

C'est la vie.
One can only "grin and bear it".

Pepe, the stoic skunk... 8)



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18 May 2022, 3:06 am

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.
It reflects the scale of the threat and the ability of the threatned to organize themselves.


The scale of a threat from Iran and North Korea is greater. So if they think Russia is a greater threat that shows a bias against Russia.

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
And speaking of US military bases, why doesn't Russia put military bases next to other countries (and if it did there would be a heavy opposition)? See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?
They do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ses#Russia


The only country that Russia has military base at that is NOT part of former Soviet Union is Syria. And look at how everyone is angry at Russia for that.

On the other hand, USA has plenty of military bases on the other end of the globe, and they aren't angry at the USA nearly as much.


Tell that to the Muslim countries that call Amuuria: "The great Satan".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Satan



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18 May 2022, 3:09 am

magz wrote:
ound Kyiv right now, securing evidence of the horrors there.
The problem with China is, they don't let international observers in. Neither does Russia. On the other hand, Ukraine invites them.
That's another reason why reconquering their territories is so important.

The definition of "international observers" needs to be clarified.
Before the pandemic, Xinjiang had more than 100 million visitors a year, and there was no shortage of international people among them.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
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Pepe
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18 May 2022, 3:16 am

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?
[color=black]Cry us a river.

"It's not fair!" is usually spoken by those on the losing end of a conflict or contest, and who have no other recourse than to lamely question the fairness of that conflict or contest.


Well, the people on the losing side are right. Losers are treated unfairly.


Quoted For Truth (QFT)
Look what happened to Germany after WWI and WWII.
An Atrocity. 8O



magz
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18 May 2022, 3:20 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
magz wrote:
ound Kyiv right now, securing evidence of the horrors there.
The problem with China is, they don't let international observers in. Neither does Russia. On the other hand, Ukraine invites them.
That's another reason why reconquering their territories is so important.

The definition of "international observers" needs to be clarified.
Before the pandemic, Xinjiang had more than 100 million visitors a year, and there was no shortage of international people among them.
UN, OSCE, ICC, HRW - professional investigators from various organizations.
And, independently from it, media. Basically from any place that wishes to send journalists there.


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