Are you a Taoists ???

Post Reply New Topic

Thank you for the rich comments. What a shocking translation you have!!

I know how you feel when discovering those hard and inexplicably dark passages among otherwise great writing of any kind.

The quote you mentioned was upsetting to me too, but I think it must be a bad translation of a concept or play on words that perhaps is impossible to translate from the Chinese, which is such a symbolic, elusive and shape-shifting language.

I think a lot of bad translation out there results from people taking seriously or literally some of the tricky and ambiguous Zen or Taoist statements that play with opposites or reversal of expectation to arrive at that moment where you say – oh I see, nothing is really real…

Like the Tao is often referred to as “darkness” but also bright darkness, or darkness that is really light;

“The bright Tao is like darkness.
The progressive Tao is like going backwards.
The even Tao is like rough.” (Daodejing 41)

I think a fun part of Taoism is to kind of see yourself (not others) as a dummy and have a sense of humor about life, or the smallness of the human in proportion to the universe.


My translation says: “Sages are not kind: People are straw dogs to them.” Maybe it is about not attributing concepts of good or bad to things if your in the state of non-attachment and emptiness. The use of the word “dummies” puts a negative attribute to people, “straw dogs” makes them seem more like a dream, “empty,” inanimate even or irrelevant to the Sage in reverie.

The rest of the passage is about emptiness. So maybe “not kind” is not about being mean, but that there is no words, concepts or emotional attributes around them…?

The Tao is full of these odd contradictions, where to be “not” something is to be it:

“Tao is empty.
But in its functioning
There is nothing it does not fill.” (Daodejing 4) or

“The Tao is nameless wholeness” (32)

Or maybe it’s just mean! I don’t know. I hate to think it. But most Taoist poetry is outright good, kind and selfless in nature, I think.

There is such a sly humor and use of irony often used in Taoist poetry so things may not always be taken at face value. The expression of certain virtues - for instance, recommending we be like water; “It sinks down to places which everyone dislikes. Therefore it is close to the Tao.” (Daodejing …!

Here is my translation of your extract in full, it’s a bit disarming to me too (I am obviously incapable of avoiding longwinded speech):

Heaven and Earth are not kind:
The ten thousand things are straw dogs to them.

Sages are not kind:
People are straw dogs to them.

Yet Heaven and Earth
And all the space between
Are like a bellows:
Empty but inexhaustible,
Always producing more.

Longwinded speech is exhausting.
Better to stay centered.

The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.

Last edited by Pixel8 on 20 Mar 2008, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

To Bobby1933:

"The Way is slow"

Thanks again, Nory, I think your comments were r;ight on" Perhaps Chapter Five means something like this.

It appears that heaven and earth are not benevolent
they seem to treat all things indifferently.
It must also seem that the sage is not benevolent
he seems to treat people like straw dogs!

But the entire universe follows Tao
when it is in non-action it does not lack anything.
When it is in action its all the same.

Debating with words leads to limitation
therefore nothing is better than to remain silent.
or centered
or like a straw dog
or like a dummy
or like the sage in Chapter 20, who seems sad, stupid, lost.
and more than a little Aspergy

CHAPTER 20

Between "yes sir" and "certainly not!"
how much difference is there?
Between beauty and ugliness,
how great is the distinction?

He whom others fear,
likewise cannot but fear others.

How confusing,
there is no end to it all!

Joyful are the masses,
as though feasting after the great sacrifice of oxen,
or mounting a terrance in spring.

Motionless am I,
without any sign,
as a baby that has yet to gurgle.
How dejected!
as though having nowhere to return.

The masses all have more than enough;
I alone am bereft.

I have the heart of a fool.
How muddled!

The ordinary man is luminously clear,
I alone seem confused.
The ordinary man is searchingly exact,
I alone am vague and uncertain.

How nebulous!
as the ocean;
How blurred!
as though without boundary.

The masses all have purpose,
I alone am stubbourn and uncouth.

I desire to be uniquely different from others
by honouring the mother who nourishes.

Thank you Bobby1933 and Averick for bringing light to beautiful chapter 20.

I like the interpretation Bobby1933!! I’m so glad the “straw dog” translation added something. Although we must still worry about why it is a straw dog!

I know I said nothing about the rest of your comments and I have to admit I actually did not understand what you meant by the text being elitist because for me it always seemed like the antidote to elitism.

I love fairy tales and I love Jane Austen, in both there are kings, queens, noble sons and daughters etc… and the lower ranks are often stereotyped or used as flat symbols of what the protagonist must avoid or aspire away from, but then again so are the very rich and subsequently corrupted.

And then there are also those orphans and impoverished ones floating outside the entire system, and they are usually the heroes who must learn to navigate in a strange existence and find ones place within it...

Which is how I see the use of 'ruler' or 'noble' vs. not or superior vs. inferior in the Tao. But I can see how seeing things entirely symbolically, rather than rooted in political realities, may be inconsiderate to the history and the humanity involved.

Also – if this helps with this sad reality– we can take comfort in the fact that the text has really inspired a universe of poetry devoted to honoring the humble and impoverished over the corrupt official or tyrant. Escaping social tyranny and seeking a humble existence pursuing spiritual rather than material and worldly ambitions seems so central to it.

The art of the holy fool for instance, the hermit with nothing but old robes and the moon in a cup, the monastery of oneself and nature or that state of being, described in Chapter 20, which must have inspired much of this kind of writing:

♣♣♣


“You left your job like casting off old sandals,
Now you hold to the Tao, not ashamed of poverty.”

- Kodojin


People all say I must be getting old,
but maybe I’ve been cultivating this stupidity!
I read books but don’t know how to interpret them;
In seeking the Way, who can steer me wrong?...

Trancelike, alone I nurture my intentions;
Visitors, please note this “region of streams and rocks.”

- Kodojin




"Quiet Place" is in a hidden place;
No fields at all, these are the true "Rich Fields!"
Brush plowing, he passes year after year,
not even accumulating one purseful of money!

- Kodojin



In this place, where the ancient Way shines forth in mystery…

From time to time the bright moon comes,
Its reflection appearing right in my cup of wine.

- Kodojin

You cannot find it by seeking.
But, only those who seek will find it.

There's a naked bug at Cold Mountain
With a white body and a black head.
His hand holds two book scrolls,
One the Way and one its Power.
His shack's got no pots or oven,
He goes for a long walk with his shirt and pants askew.
But he always carries the sword of wisdom:
He means to cut down sensless craving.

Cold Mountain is a house
Without beams or walls.
The six doors left and right are open
The hall is sky blue.
The rooms all vacant and vague
The east wall beats on the west wall
At the center nothing.

Borrowers don't bother me
In the cold I build a little fire
When I'm hungry I boil up some greens.
I've got no use for the kulak
With his big barn and pasture -
He just sets up a prison for himself.
Once in he can't get out.
Think it over -
You know it might happen to you.

If I hide out at Cold Mountain
Living off mountain plants and berries -
All my lifetime, why worry?
One follows his karma through.
Days and months slip by like water,
Time is like sparks knocked off flint.
Go ahead and let the world change -
I'm happy to sit among these cliffs.

Most T'ien-t'ai men
Don't know Han-shan
Don't know his real thought
And call it silly talk.

Most appreciated, Adverb.

Nothing under heaven is softer or weaker than water,
and yet nothing is better
for attacking what is hard and strong,
because of its immutability.

The defeat of the hard by the soft,
The defeat of the strong by the weak--
this is known to all under heaven,
yet no one is able to practice it.

Therefore, in the words of the sage, it is said:
"He who bears abuse directed against the state
is called 'lord of the altars for the gods of soil and grain';
He who bears the misfortunes of the state
is called the 'king of all under heaven.' "

True words seem contradictory.

Bobby1933:

Why don't you add more often?
Anyone with a mind for the 'contemplative' is surely welcome.

Fellow Bjork lover, and Miss Pixel8, where are you gals hiding?

right here, sometimes I have nothing useful to say so I leave it to those that have

I’m not hiding – I just don’t want to be a blabbermouth and talk too much…

Hibernating Insects Returning to Life

At the end of autumn, insects go into hibernation. In the spring, they return to life. Their rebirth is based on their hibernation.

What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of finding life in the midst of death.

The reason people do not attain lasting life is that they are unable to die first. To die means to make the human mentality die, to live means to make the mind of Tao live.

The heart is led around by emotions, desires, feelings, and perceptions. It is drawn by all sorts of influences. Gangs of foxes and dogs invade and damage the mind of Tao. Thus the human mentality lives and the mind of Tao dies. When the mind of Tao dies, sane energy fades away; essence and life are shaken, so that people inevitably die.

If you want to give life to the mind of Tao, you must first cause the human mentality to die. When the human mentality dies, the whole gang of pillagers dies of itself like a snake without a head. When it has been destroyed to the point where there is nothing more to destroy, the mind of Tao gradually comes to life and sane energy gradually returns.

This is what is meant by the saying that when the darkness has lasted a long time the light is bright. Returning to life from death is like insects returning to life after hibernating.


- Lui I-Ming

I hope no one mistook my last statement.

I did not mean in any way that I do not love and adore it when other people post/talk at great length…the longer the better I say…

My own are just always less enchanting to me and I did not want to burden this thread with too much of them.
… … …

I think the inevitable anxiety that arises on a Taoist thread is the repeated reference in the Tao to wordlessness and silence. The Tao is wordless, silent, nameless. Therefore every time you say something about the Tao it is necessarily wrong… or inaccurate or elusive…

Oh well. Maybe it is enough to just not be too attached to what we are saying or posting (rather than not say anything at all). But to let it float away and mean nothing.
… … ….

That ‘thing’ Tao is really vague, really elusive.
How vague! How elusive! Yet in it are ‘forms’.
How vague! How elusive! Yet in it are ‘things.’
How obscure! How mysterious! Yet in it are ‘seeds of life’.
These seeds are real, in them there is ‘trust’.

- Daodejing 21

“He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know…” !??? (in my next lifetime I will be silent)


Soundless and without scent, heaven and earth are incessantly repeating un-written sutras.

-Zen saying

* * *


Mother Teresa said, “God is the friend of silence. Trees, flowers, grass grow in silence. See the stars, moon, and sun, how they move in silence.” (For the brotherhood of Man).

I know someone who is very angry at Mother Teresa because he heard that when people make the trip to her house and bang on the door she does not open it like a truly benevolent person should and let them in to impart her wisdom. So they call her a hypocrite and get very upset and disillusioned with her.

I don’t know what to make of this other than that I am glad she balances her life of words with her wordless life, so people like me, who often has nothing to say myself, can copy things she comes up with into posts like this.

I guess I'm quiet because I've had a wierd week,
I'm not sure what to think about what's been happening in my life,
So I just enjoy reading other peoples posts and try to find insights into my own situation from what they say, like the universe provides answers in unexpected ways.
I look but dont want to burden this thread with whats bugging me so I stay quiet.