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zena4
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17 Jul 2009, 7:33 pm

Oh you! :evil:

Is that that you want me to improve my english?


(But I'm not sure that in my native langage, I would have thought of that either :roll: )

:)



Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 12:34 am

Michjo wrote:
Sand wrote:
Evidently you believe that people with obvious severe delusions should not be helped. I disagree.

There are plenty of people who still believe the world is flat, would you place them on anti-psychotics as well? Would you place christians on anti-psychotics? Where do you draw the line? As i said, what constitutes a delusion is subjective. If you are treating people based on their beliefs alone, then you are denying them their own free-will and rights. That is oppression.


There is no doubt that totalitarian regimes have utilized incarceration on the basis of psychological medication for their purposes of suppression of opposition. Your insistence that all psychological treatment is congruent to totalitarian suppression indicates an attitude towards medical psychiatry that is a condemnation of the whole field which is unjustified. I do not agree with that. A delusion that the Earth is invaded by reptile aliens results in self destructive behavior and should be at least examined and, hopefully, helped.



Michjo
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18 Jul 2009, 6:16 am

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There is no doubt that totalitarian regimes have utilized incarceration on the basis of psychological medication for their purposes of suppression of opposition. Your insistence that all psychological treatment is congruent to totalitarian suppression indicates an attitude towards medical psychiatry that is a condemnation of the whole field which is unjustified. I do not agree with that. A delusion that the Earth is invaded by reptile aliens results in self destructive behavior and should be at least examined and, hopefully, helped.

I never claimed that all phsyciatric help was totalitarian suppression, i said psychiatric help should be based off someones functionality and wether they are a danger to themselves and others. I can only summise by the fact you are twisting my words that you realise that you original statement (medicating people for their beliefs) is rediculously wrong.

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A delusion that the Earth is invaded by reptile aliens results in self destructive behavior and should be at least examined and, hopefully, helped.

You do not know if said belief is self-destructive. Christrains believe in an entity with red skin and horns who walks around with a trident, poking people with it because they were naughty in life. It's doesn't appear to be self-desctructive to them. Some people audaicious believe that their are no gods and they will not be judged in an after-life, it doesn't mean they run around the earth like ammoral monsters, only thinking for themselves. They do not need to be medicated. A belief is not usually classed delusional unless it affects quality of life, psychiatrists look at behaviour...



Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 7:29 am

Michjo wrote:
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There is no doubt that totalitarian regimes have utilized incarceration on the basis of psychological medication for their purposes of suppression of opposition. Your insistence that all psychological treatment is congruent to totalitarian suppression indicates an attitude towards medical psychiatry that is a condemnation of the whole field which is unjustified. I do not agree with that. A delusion that the Earth is invaded by reptile aliens results in self destructive behavior and should be at least examined and, hopefully, helped.

I never claimed that all phsyciatric help was totalitarian suppression, i said psychiatric help should be based off someones functionality and wether they are a danger to themselves and others. I can only summise by the fact you are twisting my words that you realise that you original statement (medicating people for their beliefs) is rediculously wrong.

Quote:
A delusion that the Earth is invaded by reptile aliens results in self destructive behavior and should be at least examined and, hopefully, helped.

You do not know if said belief is self-destructive. Christrains believe in an entity with red skin and horns who walks around with a trident, poking people with it because they were naughty in life. It's doesn't appear to be self-desctructive to them. Some people audaicious believe that their are no gods and they will not be judged in an after-life, it doesn't mean they run around the earth like ammoral monsters, only thinking for themselves. They do not need to be medicated. A belief is not usually classed delusional unless it affects quality of life, psychiatrists look at behaviour...


Obviously if a person believes there are aliens attacking, if nothing else, it will cause extreme mental unease. I think help is required. I also think people who believe in an active Satan require help. You evidently assume that is not psychotic. I do.



Michjo
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18 Jul 2009, 8:33 am

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Obviously if a person believes there are aliens attacking, if nothing else, it will cause extreme mental unease.

And how do you know this? I believe there are people outside who would kill me for what little money is in my wallet. I believe there are animals outside that would attack me, leaving me permanently disfigured. I believe the world contains horrible, vile diseases that would eat away at my body. This does not cause any mental unease at all. I merely accept that the world is like this and that i cannot change it, i just have to deal with it.

You could never know that the earth will be invaded in the future or if it was invaded in the past. You could not claim the world definately wasn't seeded with life in it's past that led to the dinosaurs. I don't agree with his opinion of past-events, but unless she has trouble functioning in life and/or she is a danger to herself and others, she clearly does not need any type of help.

In the world there is only ever "one truth" for specific questions. If your beliefs were carried out, everyone in the world except for one inidividual would end up taking antipsycotics.



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18 Jul 2009, 8:45 am

In case God exists: He is very evil.


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Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 9:33 am

Michjo wrote:
Quote:
Obviously if a person believes there are aliens attacking, if nothing else, it will cause extreme mental unease.

And how do you know this? I believe there are people outside who would kill me for what little money is in my wallet. I believe there are animals outside that would attack me, leaving me permanently disfigured. I believe the world contains horrible, vile diseases that would eat away at my body. This does not cause any mental unease at all. I merely accept that the world is like this and that i cannot change it, i just have to deal with it.

You could never know that the earth will be invaded in the future or if it was invaded in the past. You could not claim the world definately wasn't seeded with life in it's past that led to the dinosaurs. I don't agree with his opinion of past-events, but unless she has trouble functioning in life and/or she is a danger to herself and others, she clearly does not need any type of help.

In the world there is only ever "one truth" for specific questions. If your beliefs were carried out, everyone in the world except for one inidividual would end up taking antipsycotics.


You seem so sure. It's not clear to me.



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18 Jul 2009, 1:21 pm

I am not afraid of aliens or demons even though I believe they exist. Why would this belief mandate antipsychotics? I believe it is far more likely that our world was created by evil energy than by an all loving benevolent God who rules the universe.

Many believe God created the world and he is all good and then Satan came in and created evil. That sounds unlikely to me.
Many people who believe in God also believe that angels and demons exist, although if someone were to claim to have made direct contact with these entities then that person must be psychotic. That is just hypocritical.

Some believe that we just appeared out of no where and there is nothing beyond the material realm. I think it is delusional to think that humans are the most advanced form of life in the universe. I wouldn't suggest that these people, who in my opinion are delusional, be put on medication.

If we all are delusional then we should interpret these delusions as well as our dreams/visions.

*Please see dreams thread :wink:


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Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 1:27 pm

Magnus wrote:
I am not afraid of aliens or demons even though I believe they exist. Why would this belief mandate antipsychotics? I believe it is far more likely that our world was created by evil energy than by an all loving benevolent God who rules the universe.

Many believe God created the world and he is all good and then Satan came in and created evil. That sounds unlikely to me.
Many people who believe in God also believe that angels and demons exist, although if someone were to claim to have made direct contact with these entities then that person must be psychotic. That is just hypocritical.

Some believe that we just appeared out of no where and there is nothing beyond the material realm. I think it is delusional to think that humans are the most advanced form of life in the universe. I wouldn't suggest that these people, who in my opinion are delusional, be put on medication.

If we all are delusional then we should interpret these delusions as well as our dreams/visions.

*Please see dreams thread :wink:


There is nothing wrong with entertaining fantastic possibilities. Problems begin when you start assuming them to be real.



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18 Jul 2009, 4:53 pm

More problems start when you try to tell people what to believe and enforce ways to make people think a certain way.


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18 Jul 2009, 11:25 pm

Magnus wrote:
More problems start when you try to tell people what to believe and enforce ways to make people think a certain way.


It's not so much a matter of telling people what to believe as pointing out the fallacies in what they accept.



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19 Jul 2009, 12:30 am

Sand wrote:
Magnus wrote:
More problems start when you try to tell people what to believe and enforce ways to make people think a certain way.


It's not so much a matter of telling people what to believe as pointing out the fallacies in what they accept.


Except that if you don't know the fallacies in what you believe, how can you correct those fallacies? And if you know the fallacies, why do you believe what you do? It was because Galileo pointed out the fallacies in a geocentricism to the Catholic church that a figurative interpretation of Bible passages became widespread. He was accused of heresy for it, but without him, Christians might still believe in geocentrism and literal interpretations of the Bible.


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19 Jul 2009, 12:55 am

MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
Magnus wrote:
More problems start when you try to tell people what to believe and enforce ways to make people think a certain way.


It's not so much a matter of telling people what to believe as pointing out the fallacies in what they accept.


Except that if you don't know the fallacies in what you believe, how can you correct those fallacies? And if you know the fallacies, why do you believe what you do? It was because Galileo pointed out the fallacies in a geocentricism to the Catholic church that a figurative interpretation of Bible passages became widespread. He was accused of heresy for it, but without him, Christians might still believe in geocentrism and literal interpretations of the Bible.


Might? Don't you follow current events?



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19 Jul 2009, 3:14 pm

Actually, I believe Galileo was a Christian not only before the Inquisition but also after. I think Galileo was persecuted by the church basically because he went against Greek metaphysics, the prevailing scientific worldview during Galileo's time, a view which held that a fixed and unmoving earth was at the center of the universe.

This view was held by not only the pagan philosophers of that period but also by many influential church members who tried to dovetail this inaccurate Greek science with their interpretation of the Bible. The church may have given up on Galileo but Galileo never gave up on his Christianity, he remained one all his life.


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19 Jul 2009, 4:51 pm

The Catholic church was formed by Roman elites in an attempt to obtain world domination. Catholicism means universal. The Catholics aimed at forging all the religions into one cohesive one so that the masses would better be able to be controlled. Galileo threatened the political establishment, not the belief in God. While I don't condone what happened to him, I realize that governments often employ ideologies to maintain the fabric of its society.

Galileo was not a well respected scientist of his time. His methodology was considered to be wrong by his colleagues. His teachers held him in contempt for the most part. Galileo understood that there was undiscovered science and gave up his life to discover new truths and continued to ask questions all his life.

When scientists go looking for life out in the universe, they always look for life as we perceive it. Life is matter and matter is energy. There is more energy in empty space than in matter. Sometimes we need to think outside the box. If we keep looking for alien life forms in the material realm, we are missing out because most of the universe does not consist of matter but rather it consists of energy.


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19 Jul 2009, 4:57 pm

JetLag wrote:
Actually, I believe Galileo was a Christian not only before the Inquisition but also after. I think Galileo was persecuted by the church basically because he went against Greek metaphysics, the prevailing scientific worldview during Galileo's time, a view which held that a fixed and unmoving earth was at the center of the universe.

This view was held by not only the pagan philosophers of that period but also by many influential church members who tried to dovetail this inaccurate Greek science with their interpretation of the Bible. The church may have given up on Galileo but Galileo never gave up on his Christianity, he remained one all his life.


Keep in mind that I never said that Galileo wasn't Christian. Part of what makes his tale so tragic is how much he believed.

Sand wrote:
Might? Don't you follow current events?


Don't you follow historical events in religion?


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