Are Women's Rights Against The Bible?
11 Mar 2010, 11:49 am
Ancalagon wrote:
Jesus did not establish a new legal system.
...
And again, Jesus did not establish a new legal system.
...
And again, Jesus did not establish a new legal system.
Mark 10:
Quote:
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied....
When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied....
When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
This may not have represented a new legal system per se, but this new approach does represent a departure from the Mosaic law.
For a lot of people, the word "adultery" has come to signify a married person (regardless of gender) having sexual relations with another individual with whom said person is not married. And, for many people, the married person alone is the adulterer--the unmarried person is blameless. Traditionally, the married woman and the man (with whom she was not married and with whom she was copulating) would both be equally guilty of adultery.
Also, I'm suspecting that this Gospel was written specifically for a non-Jewish audience. "If she divorces her husband": as I understand it, even modern Orthodox Jewish women cannot divorce their husbands: the decision concerning divorce is entirely in the hands of the husband.
13 Mar 2010, 8:15 pm
An area where women do have some power is during their monthly periods:
from Leviticus 15:
Quote:
When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening.
A woman might go on a rampage and sit on everything in the house during her monthly period. Then, the whole house will be unclean and you'll need new furniture.
Also, if you are going to ride a bus or an airplane, it is probably likely that, at some point, some woman will have sat in each seat during her monthly period, unless the bus or airplane is brand new.
17 Mar 2010, 9:59 am
Leviticus 20:10
Quote:
If a man commits adultery with the wife of a fellow Israelite, both he and the woman shall be put to death.
Leviticus goes on to say that a man cannot have intercourse with any of his father's wives, with his daughter-in-law, nor with his mother-in-law, nor with his sister nor half-sister, nor with a woman during her monthly period, nor with an aunt, nor with an animal, nor with another man.
All other women would be open game.
Leviticus 20:16
Quote:
If a woman tries to have sexual relations with an animal, she and the animal shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.
It seems odd that an animal would be held responsible for something like this, however, once executed, the animal could be eaten, as long as it had the right type of hoof.
17 Mar 2010, 10:02 am
pandabear wrote:
Leviticus 20:10
Leviticus goes on to say that a man cannot have intercourse with any of his father's wives, with his daughter-in-law, nor with his mother-in-law, nor with his sister nor half-sister, nor with a woman during her monthly period, nor with an aunt, nor with an animal, nor with another man.
All other women would be open game.
Leviticus 20:16
Is there any directive in the Bible saying that a woman who enjoyed the favors of, say, a small horse, could not be eaten?
It seems odd that an animal would be held responsible for something like this, however, once executed, the animal could be eaten, as long as it had the right type of hoof.
Quote:
If a man commits adultery with the wife of a fellow Israelite, both he and the woman shall be put to death.
Leviticus goes on to say that a man cannot have intercourse with any of his father's wives, with his daughter-in-law, nor with his mother-in-law, nor with his sister nor half-sister, nor with a woman during her monthly period, nor with an aunt, nor with an animal, nor with another man.
All other women would be open game.
Leviticus 20:16
Quote:
If a woman tries to have sexual relations with an animal, she and the animal shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.
Is there any directive in the Bible saying that a woman who enjoyed the favors of, say, a small horse, could not be eaten?
It seems odd that an animal would be held responsible for something like this, however, once executed, the animal could be eaten, as long as it had the right type of hoof.
17 Mar 2010, 11:41 am
Sand wrote:
Is there any directive in the Bible saying that a woman who enjoyed the favors of, say, a small horse, could not be eaten?
Well, I'm not sure if the Bible addresses cannibalism, but I'm pretty sure that the woman could not be eaten. But, the horse, why not?
I once downloaded a video of a woman having sex with a donkey. The donkey didn't appear to be enjoying it, and the women, well, looked as if she was lucky to have a donkey.
But, maybe they ate the donkey afterwards. The video ended before then.
From Leviticus 11 (Leviticus is one of my favourite parts of the Bible):
Quote:
1-2God spoke to Moses and Aaron: "Speak to the People of Israel. Tell them, Of all the animals on Earth, these are the animals that you may eat:
3-8 "You may eat any animal that has a split hoof, divided in two, and that chews the cud, but not an animal that only chews the cud or only has a split hoof. For instance, the camel chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof, so it's unclean. The rock badger chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof and so it's unclean. The rabbit chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof so is unclean. The pig has a split hoof, divided in two, but doesn't chew the cud and so is unclean. You may not eat their meat nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.
9-12 "Among the creatures that live in the water of the seas and streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But anything that doesn't have fins and scales, whether in seas or streams, whether small creatures in the shallows or huge creatures in the deeps, you are to detest. Yes, detest them. Don't eat their meat; detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that doesn't have fins and scales is detestable to you.
13-19 "These are the birds you are to detest. Don't eat them. They are detestable: eagle, vulture, osprey, kite, all falcons, all ravens, ostrich, nighthawk, sea gull, all hawks, owl, cormorant, ibis, water hen, pelican, Egyptian vulture, stork, all herons, hoopoe, bat.
20-23 "All flying insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. But you can eat some of these, namely, those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground: all locusts, katydids, crickets, and grasshoppers. But all the other flying insects that have four legs you are to detest.
24-25 "You will make yourselves ritually unclean until evening if you touch their carcasses. If you pick up one of their carcasses you must wash your clothes and you'll be unclean until evening.
26 "Every animal that has a split hoof that's not completely divided, or that doesn't chew the cud is unclean for you; if you touch the carcass of any of them you become unclean.
27-28 "Every four-footed animal that goes on its paws is unclean for you; if you touch its carcass you are unclean until evening. If you pick up its carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening. They are unclean for you.
29-38 "Among the creatures that crawl on the ground, the following are unclean for you: weasel, rat, all lizards, gecko, monitor lizard, wall lizard, skink, chameleon. Among the crawling creatures, these are unclean for you. If you touch them when they are dead, you are ritually unclean until evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that becomes unclean no matter what it's used for, whether it's made of wood, cloth, hide, or sackcloth. Put it in the water—it's unclean until evening, and then it's clean. If one of these dead creatures falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot is unclean and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of these carcasses falls on is unclean—an oven or cooking pot must be broken up; they're unclean and must be treated as unclean. A spring, though, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but if you touch one of these carcasses you're ritually unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, you must treat it as unclean.
39-40 "If an animal that you are permitted to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass is ritually unclean until evening. If you eat some of the carcass you must wash your clothes and you are unclean until evening. If you pick up the carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening.
41-43 "Creatures that crawl on the ground are detestable and not to be eaten. Don't eat creatures that crawl on the ground, whether on their belly or on all fours or on many feet—they are detestable. Don't make yourselves unclean or be defiled by them, because I am your God.
3-8 "You may eat any animal that has a split hoof, divided in two, and that chews the cud, but not an animal that only chews the cud or only has a split hoof. For instance, the camel chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof, so it's unclean. The rock badger chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof and so it's unclean. The rabbit chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof so is unclean. The pig has a split hoof, divided in two, but doesn't chew the cud and so is unclean. You may not eat their meat nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.
9-12 "Among the creatures that live in the water of the seas and streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But anything that doesn't have fins and scales, whether in seas or streams, whether small creatures in the shallows or huge creatures in the deeps, you are to detest. Yes, detest them. Don't eat their meat; detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that doesn't have fins and scales is detestable to you.
13-19 "These are the birds you are to detest. Don't eat them. They are detestable: eagle, vulture, osprey, kite, all falcons, all ravens, ostrich, nighthawk, sea gull, all hawks, owl, cormorant, ibis, water hen, pelican, Egyptian vulture, stork, all herons, hoopoe, bat.
20-23 "All flying insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. But you can eat some of these, namely, those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground: all locusts, katydids, crickets, and grasshoppers. But all the other flying insects that have four legs you are to detest.
24-25 "You will make yourselves ritually unclean until evening if you touch their carcasses. If you pick up one of their carcasses you must wash your clothes and you'll be unclean until evening.
26 "Every animal that has a split hoof that's not completely divided, or that doesn't chew the cud is unclean for you; if you touch the carcass of any of them you become unclean.
27-28 "Every four-footed animal that goes on its paws is unclean for you; if you touch its carcass you are unclean until evening. If you pick up its carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening. They are unclean for you.
29-38 "Among the creatures that crawl on the ground, the following are unclean for you: weasel, rat, all lizards, gecko, monitor lizard, wall lizard, skink, chameleon. Among the crawling creatures, these are unclean for you. If you touch them when they are dead, you are ritually unclean until evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that becomes unclean no matter what it's used for, whether it's made of wood, cloth, hide, or sackcloth. Put it in the water—it's unclean until evening, and then it's clean. If one of these dead creatures falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot is unclean and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of these carcasses falls on is unclean—an oven or cooking pot must be broken up; they're unclean and must be treated as unclean. A spring, though, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but if you touch one of these carcasses you're ritually unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, you must treat it as unclean.
39-40 "If an animal that you are permitted to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass is ritually unclean until evening. If you eat some of the carcass you must wash your clothes and you are unclean until evening. If you pick up the carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening.
41-43 "Creatures that crawl on the ground are detestable and not to be eaten. Don't eat creatures that crawl on the ground, whether on their belly or on all fours or on many feet—they are detestable. Don't make yourselves unclean or be defiled by them, because I am your God.
I think that horses do not have split hooves, and therefore cannot be eaten. Which is silly--horesemeat is great!
So is pork and ostrich meat. Ostrich meat is especially lean, healthy and delicious.
People who follow the Bible are just plain silly.
Also, the Bible classifies bats as birds. God must not have been very observant.
17 Mar 2010, 1:30 pm
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
Is there any directive in the Bible saying that a woman who enjoyed the favors of, say, a small horse, could not be eaten?
Well, I'm not sure if the Bible addresses cannibalism, but I'm pretty sure that the woman could not be eaten. But, the horse, why not?
I once downloaded a video of a woman having sex with a donkey. The donkey didn't appear to be enjoying it, and the women, well, looked as if she was lucky to have a donkey.
But, maybe they ate the donkey afterwards. The video ended before then.
From Leviticus 11 (Leviticus is one of my favourite parts of the Bible):
Quote:
1-2God spoke to Moses and Aaron: "Speak to the People of Israel. Tell them, Of all the animals on Earth, these are the animals that you may eat:
3-8 "You may eat any animal that has a split hoof, divided in two, and that chews the cud, but not an animal that only chews the cud or only has a split hoof. For instance, the camel chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof, so it's unclean. The rock badger chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof and so it's unclean. The rabbit chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof so is unclean. The pig has a split hoof, divided in two, but doesn't chew the cud and so is unclean. You may not eat their meat nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.
9-12 "Among the creatures that live in the water of the seas and streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But anything that doesn't have fins and scales, whether in seas or streams, whether small creatures in the shallows or huge creatures in the deeps, you are to detest. Yes, detest them. Don't eat their meat; detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that doesn't have fins and scales is detestable to you.
13-19 "These are the birds you are to detest. Don't eat them. They are detestable: eagle, vulture, osprey, kite, all falcons, all ravens, ostrich, nighthawk, sea gull, all hawks, owl, cormorant, ibis, water hen, pelican, Egyptian vulture, stork, all herons, hoopoe, bat.
20-23 "All flying insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. But you can eat some of these, namely, those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground: all locusts, katydids, crickets, and grasshoppers. But all the other flying insects that have four legs you are to detest.
24-25 "You will make yourselves ritually unclean until evening if you touch their carcasses. If you pick up one of their carcasses you must wash your clothes and you'll be unclean until evening.
26 "Every animal that has a split hoof that's not completely divided, or that doesn't chew the cud is unclean for you; if you touch the carcass of any of them you become unclean.
27-28 "Every four-footed animal that goes on its paws is unclean for you; if you touch its carcass you are unclean until evening. If you pick up its carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening. They are unclean for you.
29-38 "Among the creatures that crawl on the ground, the following are unclean for you: weasel, rat, all lizards, gecko, monitor lizard, wall lizard, skink, chameleon. Among the crawling creatures, these are unclean for you. If you touch them when they are dead, you are ritually unclean until evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that becomes unclean no matter what it's used for, whether it's made of wood, cloth, hide, or sackcloth. Put it in the water—it's unclean until evening, and then it's clean. If one of these dead creatures falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot is unclean and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of these carcasses falls on is unclean—an oven or cooking pot must be broken up; they're unclean and must be treated as unclean. A spring, though, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but if you touch one of these carcasses you're ritually unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, you must treat it as unclean.
39-40 "If an animal that you are permitted to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass is ritually unclean until evening. If you eat some of the carcass you must wash your clothes and you are unclean until evening. If you pick up the carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening.
41-43 "Creatures that crawl on the ground are detestable and not to be eaten. Don't eat creatures that crawl on the ground, whether on their belly or on all fours or on many feet—they are detestable. Don't make yourselves unclean or be defiled by them, because I am your God.
3-8 "You may eat any animal that has a split hoof, divided in two, and that chews the cud, but not an animal that only chews the cud or only has a split hoof. For instance, the camel chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof, so it's unclean. The rock badger chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof and so it's unclean. The rabbit chews the cud but doesn't have a split hoof so is unclean. The pig has a split hoof, divided in two, but doesn't chew the cud and so is unclean. You may not eat their meat nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.
9-12 "Among the creatures that live in the water of the seas and streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But anything that doesn't have fins and scales, whether in seas or streams, whether small creatures in the shallows or huge creatures in the deeps, you are to detest. Yes, detest them. Don't eat their meat; detest their carcasses. Anything living in the water that doesn't have fins and scales is detestable to you.
13-19 "These are the birds you are to detest. Don't eat them. They are detestable: eagle, vulture, osprey, kite, all falcons, all ravens, ostrich, nighthawk, sea gull, all hawks, owl, cormorant, ibis, water hen, pelican, Egyptian vulture, stork, all herons, hoopoe, bat.
20-23 "All flying insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. But you can eat some of these, namely, those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground: all locusts, katydids, crickets, and grasshoppers. But all the other flying insects that have four legs you are to detest.
24-25 "You will make yourselves ritually unclean until evening if you touch their carcasses. If you pick up one of their carcasses you must wash your clothes and you'll be unclean until evening.
26 "Every animal that has a split hoof that's not completely divided, or that doesn't chew the cud is unclean for you; if you touch the carcass of any of them you become unclean.
27-28 "Every four-footed animal that goes on its paws is unclean for you; if you touch its carcass you are unclean until evening. If you pick up its carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening. They are unclean for you.
29-38 "Among the creatures that crawl on the ground, the following are unclean for you: weasel, rat, all lizards, gecko, monitor lizard, wall lizard, skink, chameleon. Among the crawling creatures, these are unclean for you. If you touch them when they are dead, you are ritually unclean until evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that becomes unclean no matter what it's used for, whether it's made of wood, cloth, hide, or sackcloth. Put it in the water—it's unclean until evening, and then it's clean. If one of these dead creatures falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot is unclean and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of these carcasses falls on is unclean—an oven or cooking pot must be broken up; they're unclean and must be treated as unclean. A spring, though, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but if you touch one of these carcasses you're ritually unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, you must treat it as unclean.
39-40 "If an animal that you are permitted to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass is ritually unclean until evening. If you eat some of the carcass you must wash your clothes and you are unclean until evening. If you pick up the carcass you must wash your clothes and are unclean until evening.
41-43 "Creatures that crawl on the ground are detestable and not to be eaten. Don't eat creatures that crawl on the ground, whether on their belly or on all fours or on many feet—they are detestable. Don't make yourselves unclean or be defiled by them, because I am your God.
I think that horses do not have split hooves, and therefore cannot be eaten. Which is silly--horesemeat is great!
So is pork and ostrich meat. Ostrich meat is especially lean, healthy and delicious.
People who follow the Bible are just plain silly.
Also, the Bible classifies bats as birds. God must not have been very observant.
Naw! He was just sloppy. He created light before He made the Sun.
17 Mar 2010, 4:16 pm
Vexcalibur wrote:
Just at the very beginning:
Dominance of men over women is actually part of God's punishment, just like child birth pain. So any woman thinking that she should not obey whatever her husband says or that she should have non-natural births to avoid the pain is going against God's word . Uh oh.
Where exactly did you get the idea that Women are inferior to Men and are sole property of their Husbands? Also, in regards to obedience, what if a Husband orderd his Wife to kill someone and she refused, is that against God's word? Or what if he is abusive towards her and he tells her not to tell anyone (family, friends, Pastor, etc) about it or try to find a safe place to stay, but she does it regardless, is that against the word of God?
Quote:
To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
Dominance of men over women is actually part of God's punishment, just like child birth pain. So any woman thinking that she should not obey whatever her husband says or that she should have non-natural births to avoid the pain is going against God's word . Uh oh.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
17 Mar 2010, 7:30 pm
It may be worthwhile to examine Genesis 16:
Quote:
Abram's wife Sarai had never had any children by him. But she had a female servant from Egypt named Hagar. So she said to Abram, "The Lord has kept me from having children. Go and make love to my servant. Maybe I can have a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai had said. After he had been living in Canaan for ten years, his wife Sarai gave him her servant Hagar to be his wife. He made love to Hagar. And she became pregnant.
When Hagar knew she was pregnant, she began to look down on the woman who owned her. Then Sarai said to Abram, "It's your fault that I'm suffering like this. I put my servant in your arms. Now that she knows she's pregnant, she looks down on me. May the Lord judge between you and me. May he decide which of us is right."
"Your servant belongs to you," Abram said. "Do with her what you think is best." Then Sarai treated Hagar badly. So Hagar ran away from her.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring of water in the desert. The spring was beside the road to Shur. He said, "Hagar, you are the servant of Sarai. Where have you come from? Where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my owner Sarai," she answered.
Then the angel of the Lord told her, "Go back to the woman who owns you. Obey her."
When Hagar knew she was pregnant, she began to look down on the woman who owned her. Then Sarai said to Abram, "It's your fault that I'm suffering like this. I put my servant in your arms. Now that she knows she's pregnant, she looks down on me. May the Lord judge between you and me. May he decide which of us is right."
"Your servant belongs to you," Abram said. "Do with her what you think is best." Then Sarai treated Hagar badly. So Hagar ran away from her.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring of water in the desert. The spring was beside the road to Shur. He said, "Hagar, you are the servant of Sarai. Where have you come from? Where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my owner Sarai," she answered.
Then the angel of the Lord told her, "Go back to the woman who owns you. Obey her."
Sarai was abusive to her servant Hagar (who was pregnant with her husband's son). She ran away, but an angel told her to go back and be Sarai's servant. Running away because of abuse is apparently against God's will.
Hagar's story continues in Genesis 21:
Quote:
The Lord was gracious to Sarah, just as he had said he would be. He did for Sarah what he had promised to do. Sarah became pregnant. She had a son by Abraham when he was old. He was born at the exact time God had promised him.
Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah had by him. When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him. He did it exactly as God had commanded him. Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
Sarah said, "God has given laughter to me. Everyone who hears about this will laugh with me."
She continued, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? But I've had a son by him when he is old."
Isaac grew. The time came for his mother to stop nursing him. On that day Abraham had a big dinner prepared. But Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac. Ishmael was the son Hagar had by Abraham. Hagar was Sarah's servant from Egypt.
Sarah said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman. Get rid of her son. The slave woman's son will never have a share of the family's property with my son Isaac."
What Sarah said upset Abraham very much. After all, Ishmael was his son.
But God said to him, "Do not be so upset about the boy and your servant Hagar. Listen to what Sarah tells you...
Early the next morning Abraham got some food and a bottle of water. The bottle was made out of animal skin. He gave the food and water to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulders. Then he sent her away with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.
When the water in the bottle was gone, she put the boy under a bush. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby. She was about as far away as a person can shoot an arrow. She thought, "I can't stand to watch the boy die." As she sat nearby, she began to sob.
Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah had by him. When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him. He did it exactly as God had commanded him. Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
Sarah said, "God has given laughter to me. Everyone who hears about this will laugh with me."
She continued, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? But I've had a son by him when he is old."
Isaac grew. The time came for his mother to stop nursing him. On that day Abraham had a big dinner prepared. But Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac. Ishmael was the son Hagar had by Abraham. Hagar was Sarah's servant from Egypt.
Sarah said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman. Get rid of her son. The slave woman's son will never have a share of the family's property with my son Isaac."
What Sarah said upset Abraham very much. After all, Ishmael was his son.
But God said to him, "Do not be so upset about the boy and your servant Hagar. Listen to what Sarah tells you...
Early the next morning Abraham got some food and a bottle of water. The bottle was made out of animal skin. He gave the food and water to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulders. Then he sent her away with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.
When the water in the bottle was gone, she put the boy under a bush. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby. She was about as far away as a person can shoot an arrow. She thought, "I can't stand to watch the boy die." As she sat nearby, she began to sob.
The two women couldn't get along. Sarah was the wife, and Hagar was her servant and Abraham's concubine. In my opinion, Sarah is getting away with being too bossy here. Abraham should have had the final say, and that should have been that. But, he gave in to Sarah. Hagar was probably way hotter, and more pleasing to him sexually.
18 Mar 2010, 12:59 am
pandabear wrote:
The two women couldn't get along. Sarah was the wife, and Hagar was her servant and Abraham's concubine. In my opinion, Sarah is getting away with being too bossy here. Abraham should have had the final say, and that should have been that. But, he gave in to Sarah. Hagar was probably way hotter, and more pleasing to him sexually.
Good god, Panda! Do you take biblical scripture seriously? Really? It is an old book of tails put together by Bronze Age dudes who were ten hairs short of being baboons.
ruveyn
18 Mar 2010, 4:02 am
pandabear wrote:
It may be worthwhile to examine Genesis 16:
Sarai was abusive to her servant Hagar (who was pregnant with her husband's son). She ran away, but an angel told her to go back and be Sarai's servant. Running away because of abuse is apparently against God's will.
Hagar's story continues in Genesis 21:
The two women couldn't get along. Sarah was the wife, and Hagar was her servant and Abraham's concubine. In my opinion, Sarah is getting away with being too bossy here. Abraham should have had the final say, and that should have been that. But, he gave in to Sarah. Hagar was probably way hotter, and more pleasing to him sexually.
Read my post on page 7 (or 8, I can't remember which page now) and you will see what God truly thinks about violence and violent Men. God doesn't want anyone in an abusive relationship.
Quote:
Abram's wife Sarai had never had any children by him. But she had a female servant from Egypt named Hagar. So she said to Abram, "The Lord has kept me from having children. Go and make love to my servant. Maybe I can have a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai had said. After he had been living in Canaan for ten years, his wife Sarai gave him her servant Hagar to be his wife. He made love to Hagar. And she became pregnant.
When Hagar knew she was pregnant, she began to look down on the woman who owned her. Then Sarai said to Abram, "It's your fault that I'm suffering like this. I put my servant in your arms. Now that she knows she's pregnant, she looks down on me. May the Lord judge between you and me. May he decide which of us is right."
"Your servant belongs to you," Abram said. "Do with her what you think is best." Then Sarai treated Hagar badly. So Hagar ran away from her.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring of water in the desert. The spring was beside the road to Shur. He said, "Hagar, you are the servant of Sarai. Where have you come from? Where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my owner Sarai," she answered.
Then the angel of the Lord told her, "Go back to the woman who owns you. Obey her."
When Hagar knew she was pregnant, she began to look down on the woman who owned her. Then Sarai said to Abram, "It's your fault that I'm suffering like this. I put my servant in your arms. Now that she knows she's pregnant, she looks down on me. May the Lord judge between you and me. May he decide which of us is right."
"Your servant belongs to you," Abram said. "Do with her what you think is best." Then Sarai treated Hagar badly. So Hagar ran away from her.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring of water in the desert. The spring was beside the road to Shur. He said, "Hagar, you are the servant of Sarai. Where have you come from? Where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my owner Sarai," she answered.
Then the angel of the Lord told her, "Go back to the woman who owns you. Obey her."
Sarai was abusive to her servant Hagar (who was pregnant with her husband's son). She ran away, but an angel told her to go back and be Sarai's servant. Running away because of abuse is apparently against God's will.
Hagar's story continues in Genesis 21:
Quote:
The Lord was gracious to Sarah, just as he had said he would be. He did for Sarah what he had promised to do. Sarah became pregnant. She had a son by Abraham when he was old. He was born at the exact time God had promised him.
Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah had by him. When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him. He did it exactly as God had commanded him. Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
Sarah said, "God has given laughter to me. Everyone who hears about this will laugh with me."
She continued, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? But I've had a son by him when he is old."
Isaac grew. The time came for his mother to stop nursing him. On that day Abraham had a big dinner prepared. But Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac. Ishmael was the son Hagar had by Abraham. Hagar was Sarah's servant from Egypt.
Sarah said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman. Get rid of her son. The slave woman's son will never have a share of the family's property with my son Isaac."
What Sarah said upset Abraham very much. After all, Ishmael was his son.
But God said to him, "Do not be so upset about the boy and your servant Hagar. Listen to what Sarah tells you...
Early the next morning Abraham got some food and a bottle of water. The bottle was made out of animal skin. He gave the food and water to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulders. Then he sent her away with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.
When the water in the bottle was gone, she put the boy under a bush. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby. She was about as far away as a person can shoot an arrow. She thought, "I can't stand to watch the boy die." As she sat nearby, she began to sob.
Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah had by him. When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him. He did it exactly as God had commanded him. Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
Sarah said, "God has given laughter to me. Everyone who hears about this will laugh with me."
She continued, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? But I've had a son by him when he is old."
Isaac grew. The time came for his mother to stop nursing him. On that day Abraham had a big dinner prepared. But Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac. Ishmael was the son Hagar had by Abraham. Hagar was Sarah's servant from Egypt.
Sarah said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman. Get rid of her son. The slave woman's son will never have a share of the family's property with my son Isaac."
What Sarah said upset Abraham very much. After all, Ishmael was his son.
But God said to him, "Do not be so upset about the boy and your servant Hagar. Listen to what Sarah tells you...
Early the next morning Abraham got some food and a bottle of water. The bottle was made out of animal skin. He gave the food and water to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulders. Then he sent her away with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.
When the water in the bottle was gone, she put the boy under a bush. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby. She was about as far away as a person can shoot an arrow. She thought, "I can't stand to watch the boy die." As she sat nearby, she began to sob.
The two women couldn't get along. Sarah was the wife, and Hagar was her servant and Abraham's concubine. In my opinion, Sarah is getting away with being too bossy here. Abraham should have had the final say, and that should have been that. But, he gave in to Sarah. Hagar was probably way hotter, and more pleasing to him sexually.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
18 Mar 2010, 10:05 am
ruveyn wrote:
Good god, Panda! Do you take biblical scripture seriously? Really? It is an old book of tails put together by Bronze Age dudes who were ten hairs short of being baboons.
ruveyn
ruveyn
Well, some people like reading and discussing Tolkein. You can have your obsessions, and I can have mine.
I like reading and discussing the Bible. There is almost always someone to argue with.
Part of the point of Genesis is to provide rather unflattering stories concerning the origins of other people in the region. Hagar's child Ishmael was supposedly the ancestor of the Arabs.
Look at what Genesis 19 says about the origin of the Moabites (whom the Israelites wiped out later) and the Ammonites:
Quote:
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
This appears in the Bible immediately after God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for you-know-what!
The Bible makes for absolutely fascinating material, especially for those seeking a fount of morality.
18 Mar 2010, 12:12 pm
pandabear wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Good god, Panda! Do you take biblical scripture seriously? Really? It is an old book of tails put together by Bronze Age dudes who were ten hairs short of being baboons.
ruveyn
ruveyn
Well, some people like reading and discussing Tolkein. You can have your obsessions, and I can have mine.
`
I understand why people like Tolkien's writing. It has a height and a grandeur. But no Tolkien admirer regards JRRT's stuff as other than fiction. Some people regard the Bible as fact. There may be a few factual statements buried in the text, but it is mostly made up.
ruveyn
18 Mar 2010, 3:32 pm
The fact that some people take the Bible as fact increases the fun associated with arguing about it.
But, the Bible isn't as completely false as, say, the Book of Mormon or the Scientology books.
There were really Israelites, and there were really Assyrian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires described in the Bible. The ruins of the temple in Jerusalem are still there.
22 Mar 2010, 12:10 am
Yes, women's rights are 'against the Bible'. Which is why the Bible is not the word of God. It's the word of God interpreted by men in ancient times, and edited throughout history by more men with agendas.
22 Mar 2010, 5:08 am
Caitlin wrote:
Yes, women's rights are 'against the Bible'. Which is why the Bible is not the word of God. It's the word of God interpreted by men in ancient times, and edited throughout history by more men with agendas.
How are they against the Bible? The Bible IS the word of God. Yes, there are many translations out there, but if you look closely and interpret the scripture correctly, you will find that it does teach the equality between Men and Women.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
22 Mar 2010, 6:07 am
LiberalJustice wrote:
Caitlin wrote:
Yes, women's rights are 'against the Bible'. Which is why the Bible is not the word of God. It's the word of God interpreted by men in ancient times, and edited throughout history by more men with agendas.
How are they against the Bible? The Bible IS the word of God. Yes, there are many translations out there, but if you look closely and interpret the scripture correctly, you will find that it does teach the equality between Men and Women.Who will do the interpreting?
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on 22 Mar 2010, 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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