Atheists - prove it.

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I understand, and I say the same as you (and as already well-evidenced in this thread) ...



And for me, I learned about that from here:

"If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that."
(page 95)

But for some reason, some of the others folks here just cannot seem to do the same, eh?!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

Every single time in this PPR forum where you invoke your sob story of addiction recovery as "evidence" of a god,
yet eventually admitted here openly you believed in god for a long time before and during your alcoholism.

Every single time you've said god controls your life yet does not intervene in it.

Every single time you say GOD saved you, yet strangely cite not the holy book of the religion you had DURING your alcoholism,
but the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS handbook.

Every single time you say your PRE-EXISTING belief in a god was not necessary for you to finally "trust" in said god,
yet concede you were a theist long beforehand.

Every single time you say god somehow saved you, but not by intervening, and not through your faith, either, since you had to GIVE THAT UP to get better.

But if you wish/must, just keep right on trying to pretend you haven't been spewing non-sensical bullsh*ttery left and right and threatening me when I call a spade a "troll".

Last edited by Bethie on 09 May 2011, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yep.

You are very close there, and I might only elaborate just a bit ...

It was of my own "free will" that I "abandoned my will" for His "new management to take over", so to speak, and in the sense of "having it repaired" just as we all do when we drop something off at the repair shop. But then a little farther on down to road, my "will" was then returned to me in "good working order" just like we again then visit the shop and retrieve our repaired stuff. Overall, then, my will always was and still is "mine" to do with as I please.


I understand.


I could fine-tune that a bit, but that is close enough.


Understood.


I always encourage people to act upon virtually anything at all they might happen to believe .... and to then let the results give indication of any actual value!

So then, you are asking about whether I "consider whether religious belief precedes reasons to have religious belief"?

I most certainly do know what "philosophical analysis" means, but I neither need nor even want one ... and you can please cut the BS about me.


Ah, you make me laugh! I have lived alcoholism, and "psychological disease" it is not! However, I do clearly understand why you could not possible see it any other way.


Please forgive me for not being more clear by placing the word "spiritual" just ahead of "transformation".

Says who?

Well, even I could argue that even you are here doing whatever you do simply because you have no control over anything and therefore simply must!

Whether you understand what happened to Job or not, the point is God allows Satan and others free will. If he stopped evil ones from doing what they will do, they would not have free will. And any evil they do can certainly be reversed by God in his own good time.


Occam's Razor only says that the simplest explanation should be chosen if all other things are equal. It can be wrong. Sometimes the simple explanation is not the truth.



The crucifixion was not necessary. I also don't believe in venerating the cross. Tell you what: let me do some research when I have the time and get back to you. This is not a copout, it's just the way it is. You can take it as you wish.

There's no reason to shout.


Do you believe there are "real Christians?" I do. They are few and far between, but they exist. Here is how you can find them:
-They base their teachings on the Bible, not philosophy or dogma.
-They worship the true God and make His name known.
-They have genuine, unselfish love for one another, despite race, gender or nationality.
-They accept Jesus as God's means of salvation.
-They are no part of the world, being disinterested in politics.
-They preach God's Kingdom as the only hope for humankind.


Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which was the name of the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem. This was where garbage went, not to burn forever, but to be destroyed. He also spoke of Hades, the Greek equivalent of Sheol, the common grave of man. Jesus himself is said to have gone there when he died and Job asked to die so that he could go there. Obviously not a place of torture. Hell, as we know it, is an invention of the Middle Ages, meant to keep the peasantry in line. Neither Jesus nor God ever threatened anyone with eternal torment.



Actually there is a fourth option. I saw Deuteronomy 28 and assumed it was the first part of the chapter which says they will be cursed and doesn't attribute the cursing to God specifically. I was, in fact, being lazy that day, I suppose. I had some things on my mind and probably shouldn't have tried to respond to you until I was ready. I guess you never have days like that. BTW, of the three you mention only an outright liar would be a "disgusting creature" to me. I pity the insane and the illiterate. If you do not, I pity you as well.

You missed something very important. This chapter is an assertion of what will happen if the Israelites do one way or the other. Deuteronomy 28:1-14 says all the good things God will do for them if they obey him. The rest of the chapter is all the bad things he will do/will simply happen if they disobey him. Is that unreasonable? God gives us free will, but he still wants us to make the right choices.

Let me put it this way. If God does exist, and if he truly has a time appointed when he will end this world as we know it, and if he is in fact the Judeo-Christian God, then he has a right, nay an obligation to fill the world with people who love him, love each other, and will obey his righteous standards. At that time, he will have provided absolute proof of his existence, yet some will still want to do what they want to do.

So you're ok with God killing some of them? Well, in fact, there were certains ones of the Canaanites who were allowed to exist within Israel. Keep in mind, the Canaanites had heard about what happened in Egypt, as Rahab told the Israelite spies. They apparently chose to ignore/disbelieve it.


Again, let me get back to you.


You believe that Adam was not real. Therefore, my argument means nothing to you without my proving that evolution is false. You don't seem prepared to even entertain that thought.

I would never accuse you of suppressing knowledge. You seem very intelligent and well-read. Had you and I met on the street, I imagine we would have had a far more genial discussion. I'm growing tired of roundabout discussions which don't lead anywhere. We can go back and forth for years and not prove anything to each other. You have some valid arguments and concerns. I would like a non-rigid open-minded discussion which doesn't include shouting or calling me disgusting.

You just came real close to being told to go f**k yourself, but I already know the mods will not tolerate that. So, let us try that again ...


I also make it clear I do not expect that to prove anything to anyone other than me.


Yes, and then why do you seem to keep missing the part where I say that "believed in" was of absolutely no good use to me?!


Whew ...


No one at all has ever done anything like that in my life! And in fact, my mother once even begged the court to not in any way intervene even while I was standing in front of a judge as an addict with a possession charge that easily could have sent me back to finish a felony sentence!

What part of "God does not intervene" do you not understand?!


You bet ... and how the 'ell would that constitute some kind of lying?! During all of my religious days, I could never make any sense of Scripture ... and so now it sits underneath my other book.


I have not said that. Rather, I have said it was useless.


Ah, now maybe I should tell what what to go do ...

... but no, Sallamandrina would be displeased.

Last edited by leejosepho on 09 May 2011, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My "put a sock in it" seems to have passed muster?

That, or maybe it just got missed altogether!

Personally, I am having a great time here and I know I can outlast absolutely anybody ...

A quarter-century of A.A./AA meetings will do that fer ya.

Nevertheless ... but oh, I must first tell you this:

I actually did go to bed around 1AM earlier this morning, but then Eli did not have to tell me what to do when the call came to come back here ...

... but yes, now I really must go take a shower and get some sleep in preparation for later on!

Peace to all.

Oh, hohoho! Favorite subject! Many people have no idea how evil and corrupt the Church was during some points in its history.

The Donation of Constantine, a forged document supposedly giving the Church of Rome control over Western Roman Empire. For a long time, the Church of Rome used this as justification for giving themselves not only Earthly but also spiritual authority.

And there was Emperor Justinian I shutting down the schools of philosophy, buying out the Church essentially at swordpoint, and overall being a murdering monster.

Oh, and the Holy Roman Empire was neither "holy" nor "Roman" nor an "empire" at any point in its sad, screwed-up history.

Finally, under the pretense of "converting the Pagans," the Church of Rome virtually exterminated every competing religious sect in Western Europe, though the Druids were arguably one of the more ridiculous sects they did away with (unless, of course, the "mass graves" often attributed to the "human sacrifice" supposedly done by the Druids was really just mass murder by the "Christians" of various time periods. Or perhaps just secularly motivated genocidal behavior by cultures that exercised Druidry?)

But I am very glad that people like yourself are helping to redeem Christianity by dispelling the aspects of it that arose during this period of tyranny.

Tengriism! Study Tengriism! You would find it very exciting as an addition to your other studies!

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 09 May 2011, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Everybody who speaks on something so abstract certainly needs one. The belief you neither need nor want signifies ignorance.


Ok?? .... You seem to think that a complete pig ignorance is justified by life experience. Somehow I don't see it this way.


So, alcoholism, the body's chemical dependence upon a drug, is more spiritual than a part of the body malfunctioning to reproduce too rapidly? The difference isn't clear. (Note: You might then still say "I *LIVED* this" but........ a lot of people have experience but still don't know what the hell they are talking about. You seem to be very clearly in this category.

You - [read "I"] can't read every word, especiall with multiply layered quotes, but sdometimes a line catches your eye.

this from a post psychohist > leejosepho a step back:

"your story sounds to me a lot like your benefits came from giving up your free will to your god, when you talk about letting him take control of your life"

We see here first, the FAR too common misapprehension. Will is will. Wish. Desire. Decision. Choice."

Will is NOT action, control, It is probably partly that there is so much "freedom of choice" talk that people start thinking it means being in charge.

God designs a world such that leejosepho, Hlilologos, psychohist, usw. have free will. I may choose to drive - though my feet barely reach the pedals, I do not know the route, I only have a learner's permit, and the traffic pattern is sending me into overload. Or I may exercise my free will and choose to let God drive.

WILL IS NOT CONTROL. Handing over control is an act of free will.

Learn English or tell me another lAZnguage that might get through, folks.