why do feminist
04 Apr 2014, 1:28 pm
Hopper wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The rapist is the bad guy in the movie who then gives the hero something to avenge, someone to catch and hurt and kill.
Let me guess, the hero is a woman too?
I don't really care anymore, and I know what I would do. This is getting ridiculous.
The hero is usually a man. I was referring to a trope, and the criticism levelled at said trope. A man's relation - usually wife or daughter - is raped (or threatened with such), and the man can then exact revenge on the rapist. The criticism is that this rape happens just so the audience can then enjoy the man exacting revenge. It is simply a plot device.
The rapist either being a man oohhhh or even a woman to avenge the man she loves who was raped by an evil woman or man!
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
04 Apr 2014, 3:59 pm
Hopper wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?
Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.
What situation? Think about that for a moment. Think about why you'd be careful if you were a woman - why such a thing presents itself as 'common sense'. As far as I can tell, this kind of thinking comes from the notion that, in some way, rape can somehow be expected. Think about what that notion means. Think about what it says about a society. Think about why it's 'common sense' for women to have to be careful, but insulting to the male identity to have anything that tells men 'don't rape'.
Everyone and everything tells you when you get on the road that you don't want to hit another car, especially at high speeds. But it happens all the time so you buckle your seat-belt and try to drive safely and defensively, not tailgating people or making erratic or tight lane changes. You don't just give everyone the benefit of the doubt because there is going to be that one idiot on the road who wasn't paying attention, was drinking or whatever, and he/she hit you. So it's common sense to develop defensive attitudes and that doesn't necessarily say anything about society in general. Rapists exist, however rare they are. And not being raped is preferable. Child molesters exist. This is why people are particular about adult supervision for their children. They know that most people probably aren't going to molest their children. Yet they also know that whatever the odds are that isn't a chance they want to be frivolous about taking. This is because the small odds of it happening are little consolation for those to whom it does happen.
Your driving analogy doesn't work. You're talking about accidents. Accidents happen - they are unintentional, lapses of concentration or unanticipated/controllable changes in conditions. Rape is not an accident. It is intentional. A driver may behave erratically or stupidly - it's a rare thing to find one who actively shunts other cars off the road.
'Rapist' is the term given to someone who rapes. In this context, it is a man who rapes a woman. There are no pre-act rapists who then fulfil their destiny as such. Rapists cannot be distinguished from other men in any way other than that the other men have not raped.
Certainly there are the serial rapists, and those who commit what Whoopi Goldberg unhelpfully called 'rape rape' - waiting in an alley, balaclava on, knife or gun at hand. This is likely the public image of 'rapist'. It's not of the boyfriend or husband or male friend or acquaintence who decides, despite her lack of consent or even against her protests, that it's quite ok to have sex with her. It's not of the friends-of-friends who decide to do to her as they see fit when she's near or actually passed out from drink or drugs.
Thing is, a woman can have all the defensive attitudes you suggest - it won't stop her being raped. What it will do is make her wonder if she deserved it, if she had just been more careful, covered herself up more, not drank so much, not taken that shortcut, not gone out, been clearer in her 'no' - maybe she did lead that guy on, taken self-defense classes, carried mace, if if if if if if if if if if.
What will stop her being raped is men not raping. Seems obvious. Yet far more time and energy is spent, as a society, telling women to be careful not to get raped, or telling women that they weren't really raped (why dress like that if you don't want it?), rather than explaining to men, from a young age, what rape is, and why it's wrong. "But I wouldn't rape anyone!" goes the cry. Well, good. Thing is, there's a lot of men who would be so affronted and insulted by the idea of such education - "what is this, do you assume all men are rapists? Why do you hate men?" - who would go on to sexually assault or rape, and who still wouldn't see themselves as rapists. It's not really rape - not 'rape rape'. Because a rapist is the pervert waiting in the shadows, a weapon of some sort at hand, watching for his victim. The rapist is the bad guy in the movie who then gives the hero something to avenge, someone to catch and hurt and kill.
Once again all of those "ifs" have nothing to do with culpability. There is obviously no fault involved with the victim. But that doesn't mean we should throw deterrence out the window as if it isn't something valuable.
_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib
04 Apr 2014, 4:13 pm
starvingartist wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
is it absurd instead to ask men: don't rape? because guess what--if men stop raping, women won't have to be careful of being raped. asking women to be careful is putting the responsibility of not being raped on the women, not on the rapists. is this really a difficult concept to grasp? when a woman is raped, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES (whether she was walking in a dark alley alone or not, whether she was drinking or not, what she was wearing, etc.) the responsibility is 100% ON THE RAPIST.
not complicated. rape is the fault of rapists, and NO ONE ELSE BUT RAPISTS. full stop.
Whoa! Calm down! I never said any of that! I would never get hurt about being told not to rape! I might feel guilty and try to protect her or something!
Do you get mad when your Mom told you to be careful, or don't trip on the ice? I'm saying men say that stuff sometimes out of worry for the victim, not because it is their fault! Why would I say it to someone I know would take it the wrong way?
The thing I said was I didn't like "all men are rapists" comments.
Saying "All men are rapists" is completely different than telling a guy to not rape you! Where does that seem the same to you? I would feel terrible if I scared a lady like that!
The first part of your comment seems like it came out of nowhere. Why? Why would it be absurd? I can't come up with one!
Sorry if I upset you....
ice is not alive and sentient, ice can't make you fall on it. if you walk on ice and you fall, it's because you weren't being careful.
if you go out alone at night and get raped, it has nothing to do with how careful you were or weren't. it has to do with the fact that a rapist raped you. telling someone to be careful is indicating they have some sort of agency in getting raped or not raped. whether i get raped or not has nothing to do with how "careful" i am: it has to do with rapists.
if you tell a woman to be careful at night, and she gets raped that night, she will remember what you said and think: "is what happened to me my fault because i wasn't careful enough?"
do you want women to think that? if you don't, stop telling them to be careful. you're not being protective or helpful when you do so.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
04 Apr 2014, 4:50 pm
Lukecash12 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?
Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.
What situation? Think about that for a moment. Think about why you'd be careful if you were a woman - why such a thing presents itself as 'common sense'. As far as I can tell, this kind of thinking comes from the notion that, in some way, rape can somehow be expected. Think about what that notion means. Think about what it says about a society. Think about why it's 'common sense' for women to have to be careful, but insulting to the male identity to have anything that tells men 'don't rape'.
Everyone and everything tells you when you get on the road that you don't want to hit another car, especially at high speeds. But it happens all the time so you buckle your seat-belt and try to drive safely and defensively, not tailgating people or making erratic or tight lane changes. You don't just give everyone the benefit of the doubt because there is going to be that one idiot on the road who wasn't paying attention, was drinking or whatever, and he/she hit you. So it's common sense to develop defensive attitudes and that doesn't necessarily say anything about society in general. Rapists exist, however rare they are. And not being raped is preferable. Child molesters exist. This is why people are particular about adult supervision for their children. They know that most people probably aren't going to molest their children. Yet they also know that whatever the odds are that isn't a chance they want to be frivolous about taking. This is because the small odds of it happening are little consolation for those to whom it does happen.
Your driving analogy doesn't work. You're talking about accidents. Accidents happen - they are unintentional, lapses of concentration or unanticipated/controllable changes in conditions. Rape is not an accident. It is intentional. A driver may behave erratically or stupidly - it's a rare thing to find one who actively shunts other cars off the road.
'Rapist' is the term given to someone who rapes. In this context, it is a man who rapes a woman. There are no pre-act rapists who then fulfil their destiny as such. Rapists cannot be distinguished from other men in any way other than that the other men have not raped.
Certainly there are the serial rapists, and those who commit what Whoopi Goldberg unhelpfully called 'rape rape' - waiting in an alley, balaclava on, knife or gun at hand. This is likely the public image of 'rapist'. It's not of the boyfriend or husband or male friend or acquaintence who decides, despite her lack of consent or even against her protests, that it's quite ok to have sex with her. It's not of the friends-of-friends who decide to do to her as they see fit when she's near or actually passed out from drink or drugs.
Thing is, a woman can have all the defensive attitudes you suggest - it won't stop her being raped. What it will do is make her wonder if she deserved it, if she had just been more careful, covered herself up more, not drank so much, not taken that shortcut, not gone out, been clearer in her 'no' - maybe she did lead that guy on, taken self-defense classes, carried mace, if if if if if if if if if if.
What will stop her being raped is men not raping. Seems obvious. Yet far more time and energy is spent, as a society, telling women to be careful not to get raped, or telling women that they weren't really raped (why dress like that if you don't want it?), rather than explaining to men, from a young age, what rape is, and why it's wrong. "But I wouldn't rape anyone!" goes the cry. Well, good. Thing is, there's a lot of men who would be so affronted and insulted by the idea of such education - "what is this, do you assume all men are rapists? Why do you hate men?" - who would go on to sexually assault or rape, and who still wouldn't see themselves as rapists. It's not really rape - not 'rape rape'. Because a rapist is the pervert waiting in the shadows, a weapon of some sort at hand, watching for his victim. The rapist is the bad guy in the movie who then gives the hero something to avenge, someone to catch and hurt and kill.
Once again all of those "ifs" have nothing to do with culpability. There is obviously no fault involved with the victim. But that doesn't mean we should throw deterrence out the window as if it isn't something valuable.
I know they have nothing to do with culpability. But that doesn't mean the victim won't think that. Society and the law have a very good line in 'yeah, but you weren't really rapedwere you? Look at how you were dressed, your sexual history, how drunk you were, and you were seen flirting with him a bit earlier' etc. All this and the self-questioning/blaming only serve to make it worse.
Women already know to 'be careful'. Many already habitually/unconsciously limit their lives, where they go, how they behave. They still get raped. But still the onus of 'rape prevention' is seen as being on the woman. The 'common sense' of 'be careful' adds to that. We would do far better to tell our men 'don't rape!'. Things may slowly be changing - there was a very good psa starting to take that tack in the uk recently:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPC-Q2NMwJw[/youtube]
I advise a 'trigger warning' for the video.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
04 Apr 2014, 4:56 pm
Hopper wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Hopper wrote:
The woman in the 'Radical feminism' video AspieOtaku linked to is having a go at what she calls 'radical feminists'. In the course of doing so, she uses the phrase 'all men are inherently rapists' in a mocking, dismissive way. The idea she's referring to is one found in some feminist discourse, but I don't think it's all that widespread. Certainly it is one readily mocked by society at large, and sometimes used as evidence that 'feminists hate men'.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
But it struck me the other day that this is essentially the premise behind victim-blaming, and the 'common sense' idea that women simply have to be careful as to how they dress, where they go, who they're with, how much they drink etc. These warnings can only make sense if one assumes that any man will take advantage of any such situation, that in some - many - instances they simply can't help themselves.
I find it ironic that these two opposing ways of thinking share the same premise, and that those of the latter view all but say 'all men are inherently rapists', but would likely cry outrage and 'man hater!' if you phrased it as such.
I don't blame victims, and would be on the side of the lady every time.
If a woman gets taken advantage of in the way you described, you tell her to be careful regardless.
You wouldn't let someone walk into that situation again would you?
Saying all men are rapists, has nothing to do with women being careful or learning self defense. If I was a woman, I'd be careful too, and ask someone I know to have my back, or have a buddy system. I'm not a woman, but I don't understand why telling women to be careful is seen as victim blaming. That is absurd.
What situation? Think about that for a moment. Think about why you'd be careful if you were a woman - why such a thing presents itself as 'common sense'. As far as I can tell, this kind of thinking comes from the notion that, in some way, rape can somehow be expected. Think about what that notion means. Think about what it says about a society. Think about why it's 'common sense' for women to have to be careful, but insulting to the male identity to have anything that tells men 'don't rape'.
Everyone and everything tells you when you get on the road that you don't want to hit another car, especially at high speeds. But it happens all the time so you buckle your seat-belt and try to drive safely and defensively, not tailgating people or making erratic or tight lane changes. You don't just give everyone the benefit of the doubt because there is going to be that one idiot on the road who wasn't paying attention, was drinking or whatever, and he/she hit you. So it's common sense to develop defensive attitudes and that doesn't necessarily say anything about society in general. Rapists exist, however rare they are. And not being raped is preferable. Child molesters exist. This is why people are particular about adult supervision for their children. They know that most people probably aren't going to molest their children. Yet they also know that whatever the odds are that isn't a chance they want to be frivolous about taking. This is because the small odds of it happening are little consolation for those to whom it does happen.
Your driving analogy doesn't work. You're talking about accidents. Accidents happen - they are unintentional, lapses of concentration or unanticipated/controllable changes in conditions. Rape is not an accident. It is intentional. A driver may behave erratically or stupidly - it's a rare thing to find one who actively shunts other cars off the road.
'Rapist' is the term given to someone who rapes. In this context, it is a man who rapes a woman. There are no pre-act rapists who then fulfil their destiny as such. Rapists cannot be distinguished from other men in any way other than that the other men have not raped.
Certainly there are the serial rapists, and those who commit what Whoopi Goldberg unhelpfully called 'rape rape' - waiting in an alley, balaclava on, knife or gun at hand. This is likely the public image of 'rapist'. It's not of the boyfriend or husband or male friend or acquaintence who decides, despite her lack of consent or even against her protests, that it's quite ok to have sex with her. It's not of the friends-of-friends who decide to do to her as they see fit when she's near or actually passed out from drink or drugs.
Thing is, a woman can have all the defensive attitudes you suggest - it won't stop her being raped. What it will do is make her wonder if she deserved it, if she had just been more careful, covered herself up more, not drank so much, not taken that shortcut, not gone out, been clearer in her 'no' - maybe she did lead that guy on, taken self-defense classes, carried mace, if if if if if if if if if if.
What will stop her being raped is men not raping. Seems obvious. Yet far more time and energy is spent, as a society, telling women to be careful not to get raped, or telling women that they weren't really raped (why dress like that if you don't want it?), rather than explaining to men, from a young age, what rape is, and why it's wrong. "But I wouldn't rape anyone!" goes the cry. Well, good. Thing is, there's a lot of men who would be so affronted and insulted by the idea of such education - "what is this, do you assume all men are rapists? Why do you hate men?" - who would go on to sexually assault or rape, and who still wouldn't see themselves as rapists. It's not really rape - not 'rape rape'. Because a rapist is the pervert waiting in the shadows, a weapon of some sort at hand, watching for his victim. The rapist is the bad guy in the movie who then gives the hero something to avenge, someone to catch and hurt and kill.
Once again all of those "ifs" have nothing to do with culpability. There is obviously no fault involved with the victim. But that doesn't mean we should throw deterrence out the window as if it isn't something valuable.
I know they have nothing to do with culpability. But that doesn't mean the victim won't think that. Society and the law have a very good line in 'yeah, but you weren't really rapedwere you? Look at how you were dressed, your sexual history, how drunk you were, and you were seen flirting with him a bit earlier' etc. All this and the self-questioning/blaming only serve to make it worse.
Women already know to 'be careful'. Many already habitually/unconsciously limit their lives, where they go, how they behave. They still get raped. But still the onus of 'rape prevention' is seen as being on the woman. The 'common sense' of 'be careful' adds to that. We would do far better to tell our men 'don't rape!'. Things may slowly be changing - there was a very good psa starting to take that tack in the uk recently:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPC-Q2NMwJw[/youtube]
I advise a 'trigger warning' for the video.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
05 Apr 2014, 5:32 am
cannotthinkoff wrote:
It is so adorable how men are so offended by feminism,. Dont make it what its clearly not!
Seriously what's the issue again?
When I looked back to the first post its the assumption that people who arent feminists are anti women or something of that nature!
Seriously what's the issue again?
I could always start a thread called are feminists always angry?
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
05 Apr 2014, 11:47 am
AspieOtaku wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
It is so adorable how men are so offended by feminism,. Dont make it what its clearly not!
Seriously what's the issue again?
When I looked back to the first post its the assumption that people who arent feminists are anti women or something of that nature!Seriously what's the issue again?
I could always start a thread called are feminists always angry?
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
05 Apr 2014, 12:17 pm
cannotthinkoff wrote:
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
feminist does not speak for all women. There are women against
feminist too. Some of the best anti feminist are women,
and some of them are Liberal too.
05 Apr 2014, 12:25 pm
billiscool wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
feminist does not speak for all women. There are women against
feminist too. Some of the best anti feminist are women,
and some of them are Liberal too.
so what is feminism? what are feminists?
05 Apr 2014, 12:35 pm
cannotthinkoff wrote:
billiscool wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
feminist does not speak for all women. There are women against
feminist too. Some of the best anti feminist are women,
and some of them are Liberal too.
so what is feminism? what are feminists?
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
05 Apr 2014, 1:16 pm
AspieOtaku wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
billiscool wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
feminist does not speak for all women. There are women against
feminist too. Some of the best anti feminist are women,
and some of them are Liberal too.
so what is feminism? what are feminists?
First of all feminism is not women only rights group (and what if it was? why women always have to think about everyones welfare but themselves?). I am sorry you feel this way and I don't know what's your life has been and what sort of experiences you've had. I suppose especially for us, we have one or two gender issues and a lot of unfair treatment.
Looks like you are quite upset by all this. I know that male gender inequality is often overlooked and not taken seriously. Especially emotional abuse. I get that, but it is not a reason for all this hatred. I really don't understand why men find feminism so offensive. Sure there are lots of extremist nutjobs and people whoring for attention, as well as such women who really just hate men, but this is actually a minority. This just diverts attention from what really matters. Do men want attention this way? Do they feel like they are loosing their masculinity and "manpower"? Idk.
It looks to me that men usually don't understand that there's still a lot of inequality and discrimination against women. And I am sure that with time we will start talking more about gender issues that men face.
05 Apr 2014, 2:12 pm
AspieOtaku wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
billiscool wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
Yes, if you are anti-feminist you are anti-women. Why? Well, what do you think feminism is? Maybe you make it to be something that is not? What are we talking about anyway?
feminist does not speak for all women. There are women against
feminist too. Some of the best anti feminist are women,
and some of them are Liberal too.
so what is feminism? what are feminists?
Feminism is concerned with ending the subjugation, oppression and exploitation of women as women, usually by and/or for men. When I say 'of women as women', I mean that their being women is the reason they are treated so. That men would not be treated that way, or would not be expected to put up with being treated that way. It has many strains, and can go plenty of ways, and there's plenty of internal disagreement. As all political movements, it bears the marks of the culture and society in which it came about, and in which it is trying to work.
I do not think feminists at large laugh off such problems men face. What I do think happens is they are wary of whataboutery. This is where someone says something is unjust, and wonders what to do about it, and someone else responds, 'yes, but what about x'.
Feminists would, I think, also argue that certain (particularly machismo) strains of masculinity are not only bad for women, but bad for men, too. All the same, I should think it obvious that their concern leans more on how this masculinity is affecting women than how it is affecting men.
Where you consider someone an oppressor, you don't often stop to worry about their feelings, or the troubles they may be facing.
It is my belief that feminism has the most and best impact when it is part of a wider consideration and analysis and criticism of the socio-economic structure(s) of society. There are many other feminists who would, for various reasons, disagree.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
05 Apr 2014, 2:32 pm
Hopper wrote:
Feminism is concerned with ending the subjugation, oppression and exploitation of women as women, usually by and/or for men. When I say 'of women as women', I mean that their being women is the reason they are treated so. That men would not be treated that way, or would not be expected to put up with being treated that way.
And, in the Western World, when this happens?
05 Apr 2014, 2:43 pm
Kuku wrote:
Hopper wrote:
Feminism is concerned with ending the subjugation, oppression and exploitation of women as women, usually by and/or for men. When I say 'of women as women', I mean that their being women is the reason they are treated so. That men would not be treated that way, or would not be expected to put up with being treated that way.
And, in the Western World, when this happens?
It happens more than you think. Speaking from my own experience.
Although I completely understand how and why men would think otherwise. Especially if they themselves treat women as equals. But not everyone does, not at all, not yet.
05 Apr 2014, 2:57 pm
there are women ceo,women governor,women only section,
ladies only night,women can play sports,women can
marry or not,women have the right to choice,
women can have men take care of them,
women can date men who are ''socially above them''
a woman can have no friends,low income and
still get a boyfriend.So,overall women have so
much rights in america.
so,what are feminist fighting for any ways?
