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Sopho
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28 May 2007, 12:30 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
sigholdaccountlost wrote:
It comes down to personal beliefs vs. putting your personal belifs on everyone


I know it doesn't sound like it to you, but in fact, your statement presents a false dichotomy. "Evangelicals" are, well, evangelical. You can't be isolatedly evangelical, now can you?

But you shouldn't be able to LEGALLY prevent people from doing X, Y or Z. You can knock on my door preaching about shite all you want. But you shouldn't be able to prevent me from having equal rights just because your weird beliefs don't fit in with my life.


Sopho, as much as I agree with you, I don't think there was any call for you to call the beliefs 'weird'

But to me, they are weird. That's my opinion. It's his opinion that he can prevent me from having the same rights as others, in the name of religion. I find that weird.



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28 May 2007, 12:30 pm

pbcoll wrote:
There's a big difference between Christians (or any other religion) being allowed to preach their faith, and forcing the tenets of their faith on others, i.e. telling others what to do or how to live (or what not to do). It's like the difference between allowing the Catholic Church not to religiously re-marry divorcees, and legally banning divorcees, whatever their religion, from re-marrying.
I find it extremely annoying when people whose advice I never asked for tell me how to live, whether they're religious or not.


Exactly!


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Sopho
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28 May 2007, 12:31 pm

pbcoll wrote:
There's a big difference between Christians (or any other religion) being allowed to preach their faith, and forcing the tenets of their faith on others, i.e. telling others what to do or how to live (or what not to do). It's like the difference between allowing the Catholic Church not to religiously re-marry divorcees, and legally banning divorcees, whatever their religion, from re-marrying.
I find it extremely annoying when people whose advice I never asked for tell me how to live, whether they're religious or not.

Exactly. Christians can hold the belief that I'm going to burn in hell, that being gay is wrong, sinful etc. I don't care about that. But they shouldn't have the right to control part of my life because of it.



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28 May 2007, 12:31 pm

Ragtime wrote:
And, about the rest of what you said, I've had enough of you pretending I'm making different points than I crystal-clearly am, just making us go around in a circle one more time... And yes, this discussion has gotten just about as ridiculous as it can, or should. It's still logical, but hardly palletable. But, finally, it touched a nerve with a few of the people on here. And that was the goal.
I truly regret participating in it this far.

If I am not mistaking your point has been in this thread for the last two days, that you are against gay marriage and gay relationships, because the Bible says so, am I wrong?
You were even using pedophilia as an excuse to promote and encourage (maybe indirectly) homophobia, am I wrong?
You said how far people would go, is that means that homosexulity is the first step of perversion? I am not sure what did you mean by that, but it sounds like it.



Last edited by greenblue on 28 May 2007, 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sigholdaccountlost
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28 May 2007, 12:36 pm

trolltroll wrote:
ATHIESTS ARE FAGFAGS.

U R üBER ret*d.



Define 'atheist' In your opinion, is it people who don't believe in a God or people who don't believe in a traditional God?

What's a fagfag?

Define 'ret*d'


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Sopho
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28 May 2007, 12:38 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:
trolltroll wrote:
ATHIESTS ARE FAGFAGS.

U R üBER ret*d.



Define 'atheist' In your opinion, is it people who don't believe in a God or people who don't believe in a traditional God?

What's a fagfag?

Define 'ret*d'

He's a troll. He said fags are full of s**t in the gay marriage thread and also insulted people who like history in my history thread. Gay, history-liking atheists... he must really hate me. :lol:



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28 May 2007, 12:39 pm

This guy is the same spammer who posted the "I got you" and "you are an idiot" annoying posts.



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28 May 2007, 12:40 pm

Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Gays are 1 in 10. That's hardly an equal split of tax dollars. There's a higher percentage of Christians in my country than in yours. And, as a solution to the taxes-going-to-the-wrong-causes dilemma, I invite all gays to find a big island somewhere and start their own country -- it's not that hard -- which would be 100% gay-supportive. Then they wouldn't have to keep whining at us to change our faith, and we wouldn't keep having to ask them to kindly back off.

What? I'm not whining at your to change your faith. I don't give a sh** about your faith, all I want is for you to keep it out of MY life. If gays are 1 in 10 then gay marriages would be around 1 in 10 as well. So the tax argument doesn't work. Why should my taxes only go to straight marriages, yet I can't marry a woman?
It wouldn't actually be that easy for me to find my own island full of gay people actually either. I shouldn't have to leave my family anyway just because some weird Christians don't want me to have equal rights.


I'll keep out of anyone's life who doesn't interfere with the practice of my faith. The Christian faith is a way of living, permeating every interaction with others -- it's not simply praise-n-worship time on Sundays, or somesuch thing that can be "kept to oneself". When I was little, my friend's mom told me that I should keep my Christianity to myself -- an exhortation we often hear today. Only problem with it is it's the definition of a biblical Christian to share his or her faith. It's not a selfish religion, where we say, "Good for us; let everyone else burn", or, "Live and let damn." Not sharing the vitally necessary truth of Christ with the rest of the world would be an act of pure hatred on our parts! One Greek word for the Christian faith is "scandalon", from where we get "scandal", originally meaning "offense". Christ said that His message always offends initially, by its very nature, because it points out the truth that we are all in the wrong. No one wants to hear that, but in the end, that truth sets them free after they accept it and its solution.

You should not have the right to legally and politically inflict your beliefs on me though. I think Christianity is weird and pointless, it irritates me. Yet I do not try and prevent you from going to church, praying to your 'god,' believing whaterv you want to believe. What if my religion dictated that it was wrong to be straight, and only gay people get into heaven? Should I then campaign to ban heterosexual marriage? Try and see this from my point of view. If the majority of society was gay, how would you feel if we stopped you having the same rights on the basis that we believed it was wrong?


Though I don't know what it's like to be you -- to have always had only same-sex attractions -- I can see the basic argument from your point of view. (I have wondered, though, in trying to better identify with you, whether your non-attraction to men is specific or general -- for instance, is it that men are ugly, and thereby less attractive than the fairer sex? Are you repulsed, or just neutral toward men? You don't have to answer any of these, but it'd help me better understand your point of view. It must be something physical/chemical, because you've said you have often liked men a non-sexual ways. So what's the "missing piece" in liking them in every way, I wonder?)



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28 May 2007, 12:41 pm

trolltroll wrote:
YOU ARE ALL CLITORISES!! !



Thank you.


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28 May 2007, 12:43 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Though I don't know what it's like to be you -- to have always had only same-sex attractions -- I can see the basic argument from your point of view. (I have wondered, though, in trying to better identify with you, whether your non-attraction to men is specific or general -- for instance, is it that men are ugly, and thereby less attractive than the fairer sex? Are you repulsed, or just neutral toward men? You don't have to answer any of these, but it'd help me better understand your point of view. It must be something physical/chemical, because you've said you have often liked men a non-sexual ways. So what's the "missing piece" in liking them in every way, I wonder?)

I am just not physically attracted to men. I don't find them repulsive to look at, I just don't find them attractive. So it is physical, but it's also more that that. I can get on with men in a non-sexual way as friends. But even then, it's different to how I would feel with a girl I liked. So it's not just physical, I simply feel differently towards women than men, as well as only being physically attracted to women.



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28 May 2007, 12:44 pm

It works just like an heterosexual attraction, just the other way around. Is not that hard to picture it. I think.



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28 May 2007, 12:48 pm

trolltroll wrote:
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Awww....we love you too.


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greenblue
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28 May 2007, 12:50 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:
Awww....we love you too.

Don't encourage him please



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28 May 2007, 12:51 pm

greenblue wrote:
It works just like an heterosexual attraction, just the other way around. Is not that hard to picture it. I think.

Yep.



sigholdaccountlost
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28 May 2007, 12:52 pm

Soo...any issues to raise with my 'mute' point?


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28 May 2007, 12:54 pm

Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Gays are 1 in 10. That's hardly an equal split of tax dollars. There's a higher percentage of Christians in my country than in yours. And, as a solution to the taxes-going-to-the-wrong-causes dilemma, I invite all gays to find a big island somewhere and start their own country -- it's not that hard -- which would be 100% gay-supportive. Then they wouldn't have to keep whining at us to change our faith, and we wouldn't keep having to ask them to kindly back off.

What? I'm not whining at your to change your faith. I don't give a sh** about your faith, all I want is for you to keep it out of MY life. If gays are 1 in 10 then gay marriages would be around 1 in 10 as well. So the tax argument doesn't work. Why should my taxes only go to straight marriages, yet I can't marry a woman?
It wouldn't actually be that easy for me to find my own island full of gay people actually either. I shouldn't have to leave my family anyway just because some weird Christians don't want me to have equal rights.


I'll keep out of anyone's life who doesn't interfere with the practice of my faith. The Christian faith is a way of living, permeating every interaction with others -- it's not simply praise-n-worship time on Sundays, or somesuch thing that can be "kept to oneself". When I was little, my friend's mom told me that I should keep my Christianity to myself -- an exhortation we often hear today. Only problem with it is it's the definition of a biblical Christian to share his or her faith. It's not a selfish religion, where we say, "Good for us; let everyone else burn", or, "Live and let damn." Not sharing the vitally necessary truth of Christ with the rest of the world would be an act of pure hatred on our parts! One Greek word for the Christian faith is "scandalon", from where we get "scandal", originally meaning "offense". Christ said that His message always offends initially, by its very nature, because it points out the truth that we are all in the wrong. No one wants to hear that, but in the end, that truth sets them free after they accept it and its solution.

You should not have the right to legally and politically inflict your beliefs on me though. I think Christianity is weird and pointless, it irritates me. Yet I do not try and prevent you from going to church, praying to your 'god,' believing whaterv you want to believe. What if my religion dictated that it was wrong to be straight, and only gay people get into heaven? Should I then campaign to ban heterosexual marriage? Try and see this from my point of view. If the majority of society was gay, how would you feel if we stopped you having the same rights on the basis that we believed it was wrong?


But that's just it: It's not a matter of how I'd "feel", it's a matter of what the truth is. I take it you don't believe in absolute truth, so that the phrase "the truth" would be a contradiction in terms. I accept that, but I do believe in absolute truth. I don't believe in making my own truth. So you see, I am thereby inflexible when confronted with a plurality of "truths", each of which contradicting the others.

Oh my... I just remembered something. Would you say you're logical? If so, then I have a surprise for you: You believe in absolute truth! The First Law of Logic is the Law of Non-contradiction. It means that, whatever this may be, there is precisely one truth binding everything. Therefore, it is impossible to use logic without accepting absolute truth.