Opinions on abortion?

Post Reply New Topic

Excuse me a moment.

Aha it was Thomas Jefferson I was thinking of. My mistake. Sorry Abe. Didn't mean to slander you. I've fixed my post to reference the correct president.

While I think my core point still stands. I'm sincerly glad you pointed out the mistake.

That's not what I meant--we are the ones who have to physically build the baby out of our own body tissues. Sperm and egg are necessary to start, but the building process happens within the female body, hence pregnancy is the sphere of women.

S'okay!

Who attacked your character? I described a common tactic on here used by many posters. You're pulling another common tactic here though, stomping your feet and insisting you've won as though it means you have. I'm not going to reciprocate otherwise we'll both look like children.

You're right that it's a non-argument though, it's merely an observation. It's not limited to people I disagree with unfortunately, I'm sure I've done both of them before, I know people I agree with regularly sometimes do it and I know people I oppose do it.

Can't it be the doctor's sphere? Surely the obstetrician knows more about pregnancy than you do.

As for being jealous of pregnancy, being pregnant and giving birth are not necessarily nice experiences. Which man said he was jealous of that?

It's not about giving birth or creating life. Those are sideshows, and act as a fog to cover the real issues at the core of the pro life advocates.

1. There are a minority of pro-lifers for whom opposition to abortion rights is their determination to reinforce the authority of the Catholic Church. The only pro lifers in New Zealand (a tiny number) are in this camp.

2. It is about women's agency as adult human beings. We have come a long way since women were not even legal persons. The 19th century first wave feminists fought and won the right to be persons and some (the NZ ones) the right to vote equally with men. Second wave feminists looked much more closely at patriarchal controls on women which functioned to deny them agency over their own lives. They saw many glaring discrepancies, such as property rights to ownership. Women could not buy houses in their own right, because banks would only lend to men, and if a married woman wanted a mortgage in her own right, she had to have a husband's permission. This and many other examples were intended to maintain patriarchal control over women's lives and choices. Married women who worked (not many in earlier times) were forced to give up their careers if they became pregnant and their tenure was terminated. None of these things happened in isolation, they were all facets of male control and male dominance.

And it is male resentment toward the changes these and many other battles have achieved that has driven patriarchal backlash, and still does, the mindless uninformed dissing of feminists by men who don't know the history, or do know and don't care because they would prefer women were subservient to male dominance and not persons with agency.

Men and women are adults with agency to make life choices. It may take another century for men to get used to women as full agents in their own lives, if the species survives that long.

If it's happening inside a woman's body, it's her choice what to do about it. It's really that simple, and men can complain all they want but they can't change the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant so women are the ones who choose. So go ahead and keep arguing with yourselves, guys--it changes nothing.

No you said "So many unnecessary words used to say I'm jealous of the power of creation of life and that makes me want to oppress women because I'm petty and insecure and can't deal with the biological reality that pregnancy is the sphere of women".

What's up with this feminist habit of telling men what they're thinking? You seem to think you know what other people are thinking better than they know themselves.

It's such a dishonest tactic to say "When you say x, you really mean y" so you can condemn them based on something they didn't even say. People will see through those tactics.

I don't want those pro-lifers to win but if you argue poorly in favour of pro-choice then you're hurting pro-choice and helping pro-life.

Many words here. It's still not up to you what women do with their bodies.

I have no desire to tell women what they can do with their bodies. You say that men can't change the fact that women get to choose. Unfortunately there are some very bad men in politics who just might be able to change that fact. If feminists keep arguing poorly they'll give those very bad men more power to choose for you.

For what it's worth, if the law changes to prevent women from expressing ownership over their body in this way, the law will be wrong and they'll be absolutely morally justified in defying it.

You keep misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm aware that laws can change, as abortion has been illegal before. What men can never change is that pregnancy is something that happens inside a woman's body, so arguing over it and comparing it to other "crimes" like theft and murder is ridiculous, because none of those other things happen exclusively inside the bodies of women like pregnancy does. You can try to change laws to make it illegal for a woman to choose what happens to her body, but you can't change the physical reality of pregnancy being a women's issue and a woman's choice.

You can make our choices illegal, but you can't take the power to end pregnancy away from women no matter what you argue. That's why listening to men argue about abortion is entertaining to me.

I quite agree.

I agree that it would be immoral to not allow abortion but morality is not created by physical reality. People create moral systems.

Freedom to get an abortion, freedom of speech, the abolition of slavery, all of these ideas were thought of be people. None of them just came out of physical reality. Or did you think morality is objective?

The point I'm trying to make is that you should never take your rights for granted because there are bad people out there who can take them away more easily than you think.

Last edited by RetroGamer87 on 22 Jan 2018, 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Abortion is commonly illegal now, never mind "before", conditional upon our ability to sustain the life of the fetus outside its mother. Comparing abortion to murder is hardly ridiculous - we're talking about making a premeditated decision to end the life of another human being, albeit at different a stage of development.



The body I'm interested in is that of the fetus, not of its host. As your interest lies in enabling choices for women, I'll assume you're on board with my preference for replacing pregnancy - when and where desired - with artificial gestation.



You can make the our choices illegal, but you can't take the power to rape away from men no matter what you argue. That's why listening to women argue about rape is entertaining to me.

Fair comparison, no? You are making a "might makes right" argument, after all.

I've witnessed your "style" of argumentation with other commenters. You're not going to drag me into a discussion with you, it looks pretty unpleasant so I think I'll pass. I will however continue to laugh at all the salty men in this thread.