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salad
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01 Jul 2021, 12:53 am

cyberdad wrote:
Criticising Israel is tricky but I agree with Biden that Israel has the right to retaliate against HAMAS if their civilians are being targeted.

Remember HAMAS took the first step in killing following the Israeli crackdown on Palestinian protest and dissent. I am sure if Cuba decided to launch rockets on Guantanamo bay, Havanna would be a a crater,


And doesnt Hamas have the right to retaliate against Israel for 73 years of ethnic cleansing, human rights abuses, besieging Gaza and restricting whatever goes in and out of Gaza, and crimes against humanity that resulted in over 96 UN Resolutions?

Why does Israel have the right to defend itself but not the Palestinians?

Better question, does Israel even have a right to defend itself??

If I rob a store, the store owner fires back at me, then I take out a Glock to fire at the store owner, that doesn't count as self defense. A criminal resisting arrest and firing at the officer or citizen trying to subdue the criminal with the intention of escaping apprehension does not count as valid self defense.

No legal scholar or fair historian would ever call the German Wehrmacht's final stand at the Battle of the Bulge to halt the Allied advance into Germany to be self defense, and I think that same reasoning applies to Israel. Israel has no right to "Self defense" since self defense is only valid if and only if the person is being attacked without just cause. But if a pariah state is engaging in violations of human rights and crimes against humanities all military action inflicted against said pariah state with the intention of holding a transgressor accountable is valid, and all attempts to resist accountability can not, is not and will not ever qualify as legitimate self defense.

If my reasoning is not satisfying to you then here's a thought experiment: were the Buffalo Soldiers during the Indian Wars who eventually put the Natives on reservations a defense force since it is true that Natives were launching raids and attacks on white settlements to preempt them from totally liquidating Native American lands?

When I was in high school I once got in a fight with a boy who started the fight by sucker punching me. I retaliated by beating the s**t out of him and stomping his head into the concrete and concussing him. That's self defense because the other guy started the fight. But if I pushed the guy 1st, then the guy punched me back and then I shoved him into the concrete, that wouldn't count as self defense since I started the fight and thus all actions I took under the pretext of defense from the victim's retaliatory response to my initial aggression are invalid.


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cyberdad
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01 Jul 2021, 1:33 am

The problem is that Israel is surrounded across all its borders by hostile states and they will choose to use force to defend their civilians.

The problem as I see it is the IDF are like the US police and black people, they have become accustomed to using excessive force against Palestinian civilians.

Its my preference that everything be done to protect civilians, Palestinian but also Israeli civilians.

Extremists on both sides are not helping peace, they only make things worse.

Palestinian lives matter....but so do Israeli lives.



funeralxempire
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01 Jul 2021, 1:41 am

cyberdad wrote:
The problem is that Israel is surrounded across all its borders by hostile states and they will choose to use force to defend their civilians.


How many of those states has Israel since made peace with? I don't think Egypt or Jordan count any more.


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salad
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01 Jul 2021, 1:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
The problem is that Israel is surrounded across all its borders by hostile states and they will choose to use force to defend their civilians.

The problem as I see it is the IDF are like the US police and black people, they have become accustomed to using excessive force against Palestinian civilians.

Its my preference that everything be done to protect civilians, Palestinian but also Israeli civilians.

Extremists on both sides are not helping peace, they only make things worse.

Palestinian lives matter....but so do Israeli lives.


Given Israel's very militant and expansionist history I dont think it's fair to label its borders as hostile when Israel was the one in 1948 that stole 22% of Mandatory Palestine in contravention of the UN deal, a deal that was itself already unfair to the Palestinians and completely biased for Israel, as well as surprise attacking Jordan, Egypt and Syria in 1967 and stealing chunks of all 3 countries against international law. The countries that border Israel are hostile to it because Israel from its inception hasn't done a great job with its PR expelling Palestinians from their homes, massacring Palestinians in Deer Yassin and other villages, as well as repeatedly violating international law in their building of Israeli settlements and demolition of Palestinian homes. Not to mention that in 1955 Israel along with England attacked Egypt during the Suez Canal crisis. And the 6 Day War. Israel was founded on genocide, has repeatedly violated international laws, has been an aggressor in the Middle East, so to bring up former hostile nations to Israel seems like a stretch to me


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cyberdad
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01 Jul 2021, 2:05 am

funeralxempire wrote:
How many of those states has Israel since made peace with? I don't think Egypt or Jordan count any more.


salad wrote:
Israel was founded on genocide, has repeatedly violated international laws, has been an aggressor in the Middle East, so to bring up former hostile nations to Israel seems like a stretch to me


Agreed, the modern political landscape is much more different to 1967 and Yom Kippur...

The problem might be that the IDF is lead by war veterans who saw active duty against other states and choose to maintain a high level of response to any sign of aggression from HAMAS.



funeralxempire
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01 Jul 2021, 2:07 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
How many of those states has Israel since made peace with? I don't think Egypt or Jordan count any more.


salad wrote:
Israel was founded on genocide, has repeatedly violated international laws, has been an aggressor in the Middle East, so to bring up former hostile nations to Israel seems like a stretch to me


Agreed, the modern political landscape is much more different to 1967 and Yom Kippur...

The problem might be that the IDF is lead by war veterans who saw active duty against other states and choose to maintain a high level of response to any sign of aggression from HAMAS.


Do their traumas justify their war crimes? :chin:


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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


cyberdad
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01 Jul 2021, 2:17 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Do their traumas justify their war crimes? :chin:


No, but if Israel allows rockets to enter their borders unanswered doesn't it send a message to HAMAS to keep lobbing?



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 2:23 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Do their traumas justify their war crimes? :chin:


No, but if Israel allows rockets to enter their borders unanswered doesn't it send a message to HAMAS to keep lobbing?


But before Hamas fired the rockets Israel did storm the Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, during the holy month of Ramadan and shot people praying peacefully including my brother, and they did allow settlers to provocatively attack and harass Palestinians. Not to mention that even if the news doesnt talk about this Israel's blockade of Gaza is draconian and is in of itself an act of war, so arguments can be made that Hamas firing rockets is a defensive response. Personally I dont support Hamas but at the same time I dont think its fair to completely frame them as the aggressor the media makes them out to be


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01 Jul 2021, 3:04 am

salad wrote:
But before Hamas fired the rockets Israel did storm the Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, during the holy month of Ramadan and shot people praying peacefully including my brother, and they did allow settlers to provocatively attack and harass Palestinians.


Yes I don't support the settler occupation of border areas. Their reasons to encroach into Palestinian areas seems to purely motivated by religious zeal.

I'm sorry about your brother, why did the IDF storm the mosque?



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 3:33 am

cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
But before Hamas fired the rockets Israel did storm the Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, during the holy month of Ramadan and shot people praying peacefully including my brother, and they did allow settlers to provocatively attack and harass Palestinians.


Yes I don't support the settler occupation of border areas. Their reasons to encroach into Palestinian areas seems to purely motivated by religious zeal.

I'm sorry about your brother, why did the IDF storm the mosque?


Right now my brother is still sleeping so I cant ask him for more details, but the pretext given was that there were people protesting the forced eviction of residents from Sheikh Jarrah, a neighborhood in East Jerusalem that was the center of a controversy with the Israeli government forcibly evicting Palestinians living there to make way for jewish settlers, and using that as a pretext they just started firing rubber bullets and throwing grenades into the Aqsa Mosque and there's even footage of soldiers randomly beating up people there to intimidate them.

once my brother wakes up I can ask him for more details since he witnessed it 1st hand


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01 Jul 2021, 5:44 am

salad wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
But before Hamas fired the rockets Israel did storm the Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, during the holy month of Ramadan and shot people praying peacefully including my brother, and they did allow settlers to provocatively attack and harass Palestinians.


Yes I don't support the settler occupation of border areas. Their reasons to encroach into Palestinian areas seems to purely motivated by religious zeal.

I'm sorry about your brother, why did the IDF storm the mosque?


Right now my brother is still sleeping so I cant ask him for more details, but the pretext given was that there were people protesting the forced eviction of residents from Sheikh Jarrah, a neighborhood in East Jerusalem that was the center of a controversy with the Israeli government forcibly evicting Palestinians living there to make way for jewish settlers, and using that as a pretext they just started firing rubber bullets and throwing grenades into the Aqsa Mosque and there's even footage of soldiers randomly beating up people there to intimidate them.

once my brother wakes up I can ask him for more details since he witnessed it 1st hand


It sounds like the IDF is infiltrated by zionist types who support occupation of these lands. I think there are left-wing Jewish movements against this type of ultra-zionism and promote peace with Palestinians. it would be better to form alliances with them than in groups like HAMAS.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 5:57 am

cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
But before Hamas fired the rockets Israel did storm the Aqsa Mosque, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, during the holy month of Ramadan and shot people praying peacefully including my brother, and they did allow settlers to provocatively attack and harass Palestinians.


Yes I don't support the settler occupation of border areas. Their reasons to encroach into Palestinian areas seems to purely motivated by religious zeal.

I'm sorry about your brother, why did the IDF storm the mosque?


Right now my brother is still sleeping so I cant ask him for more details, but the pretext given was that there were people protesting the forced eviction of residents from Sheikh Jarrah, a neighborhood in East Jerusalem that was the center of a controversy with the Israeli government forcibly evicting Palestinians living there to make way for jewish settlers, and using that as a pretext they just started firing rubber bullets and throwing grenades into the Aqsa Mosque and there's even footage of soldiers randomly beating up people there to intimidate them.

once my brother wakes up I can ask him for more details since he witnessed it 1st hand


It sounds like the IDF is infiltrated by zionist types who support occupation of these lands. I think there are left-wing Jewish movements against this type of ultra-zionism and promote peace with Palestinians. it would be better to form alliances with them than in groups like HAMAS.


As for as alliances with Left-Wing groups it depends on which groups we're talking. Even most left-wing groups whitewash what Israel is doing and dont address the elephant in the room of Israel unilaterally occupying states illegally and denying them self-determination, nor are they willing to admit that the land Israel which they call home was founded upon genocide. I'd be happy to form alliances with left-wing Israelis like Ilan Pape, Avi Shlaim, and Miko Peled who at least dont deny the root of this conflict, but if someone calls themself left wing and their version of peace is one where Hamas stops firing rockets but the status quo is maintained, or even if they want to dismantle the status quo but deny Israeli genocide, then such people id rather avoid

America did terrible s**t but at least here in America a good number of whites are open about this country's terrible history and atrocities and want to actually make things right; many whites were protesting for Floyd and many whites risked their lives and bodies last year during the BLM protests. If the Left-Wing Israelis are willing to go that far analogously for the Palestinian cause of justice then yeah im cool with them


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01 Jul 2021, 6:00 am

salad wrote:
America did terrible s**t but at least here in America a good number of whites are open about this country's terrible history and atrocities and want to actually make things right; many whites were protesting for Floyd and many whites risked their lives and bodies last year during the BLM protests. If the Left-Wing Israelis are willing to go that far analogously for the Palestinian cause of justice then yeah im cool with them


The left is the only hope for minority groups. Whether its blacks in the USA putting up with right wing christians or Palestinians putting up with religious Israeli Jews.



salad
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01 Jul 2021, 6:09 am

cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
America did terrible s**t but at least here in America a good number of whites are open about this country's terrible history and atrocities and want to actually make things right; many whites were protesting for Floyd and many whites risked their lives and bodies last year during the BLM protests. If the Left-Wing Israelis are willing to go that far analogously for the Palestinian cause of justice then yeah im cool with them


The left is the only hope for minority groups. Whether its blacks in the USA putting up with right wing christians or Palestinians putting up with religious Israeli Jews.


I can't agree with that statement. It exudes massive white savior complex. Especially when you say "only hope". Many Palestinians and blacks proudly risked their lives for their own rights and justice, and many have pride in being able to say they earned their own freedom and progress. Having allies from the dominant group is always helpful, but allies can never replace the autonomy and will of the people to determine and forge their own fate and destiny through their own struggles and choices.

Still it takes massive balls on the part of the left and virtue to risk everything for other minority groups and for struggles that arent even their own that they actually benefit from. While it is the blacks and Palestinians who determine their own fate, the support of the Left is more noble since it borne out of humanitarian impulse rather than selfish bias. Me personally I dont know if I would support Palestine if I wasn't born Palestinian. Truth be told if I wasnt born Palestinian I would actually support Israel. It's commendable that people would support a cause and transcend tribal bias in favor of morality unfettered by where one is born


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01 Jul 2021, 6:31 am

salad wrote:
the support of the Left is more noble since it borne out of humanitarian impulse rather than selfish bias.


Yes this is the principle which guides me to side with the left.



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01 Jul 2021, 4:36 pm

Scarecrow13 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
We have been ranting about woke cancel culture a lot here lately, a lot of it from me. They did not invent this. It was the conservatives that wrote the book. All the wokes have done is written the updated edition.

I will be staying away from when it went beyond cancel culture to terrorism such as the KKK who by killing thousands thus canceled the reconstruction and the recent failed attempt to cancel the results of the election.

1934 - Hays code: Very strict “guidelines” for movies that in practice resulted in widespread self censorship to the point of being ridiculous like not showing married characters in the same bed. It also had racist elements such as no depicting interracial kissing or white women as slaves. The code expired in 1968.

World War II:Hollywood became a propaganda arm of the US government with racist characterizations of Japanese fighters commonplace. And yes there were those internment camps.

Early 1950s McCarthyism:Maybe the closest historical parallel to what has been happening recently. A campaign by Senator Joe McCarthy to out supposed communists in Hollywood and the State Department resulting in blacklists, firings and fear.

1966 Beatles Record Burnings:This happened after John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger that Jesus. He did not mean that was good thing. In the Bible Belt they did not take it that way.

1979 Disco Demolition Night:A promotion that turned into a riot. Fans were asked to bring disco records to a baseball game which were blown up. Disco music came out of the LBGTQ and black communities. Many of the records blown up that night were by non disco black artists. This was part of a larger backlash against disco music and culture. The week of the riot 6 of the top 10 singles were disco by September only 1 record of the top 10 was disco. Rock groups that added disco elements to songs received death threats.

1985 Parents Music Resource Center hearings: A successful attempt by Tipper Gore wife of Senator Al Gore and Treasury Secretary James Baker to have companies put warning stickers on records. It was believed Heavy Metal music had coded Satanic messaging. In fairness this was bi partisan, was not trying to cancel rock and a lot of the videos on MTV were exploitive and sexist, but somehow I felt this belonged.

During this time it was common for school districts to ban books that were considered perverted or sympathetic to socialists and communists.

2018 Professor Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor’s commencement speech cancellation:Address canceled following death threats after he criticized President Trump.

2018 President of of Sonoma State University apology:Allowed black student to give a graduation speech criticizing police violence.

2021 Lauren Wolf firing:Reacting to conservative complaints The New York Times fires a reporter for tweeting that she got chills when seeing Joe Biden's plane landing for his inauguration.


There is some truth to this claim but some of these aren't examples of right wing cancel culture.
The Japanese interment camps were an executive order by FDR, darling of the progressives. Tipper Gore also couldn't be called right wing.
As for McCarthyism, they were right about a communist infiltration, but were wrong about tactics and in many ways it was similar to cancel culture of today, with people being doxed and fired.
I also remember the Dixie Chicks being canceled when the criticised Bush and the Iraq War.

One does not have to be conservative or right wing to want to cancel people for “conservative” reasons. The internment camps have particular resonance with “conservative” because of the Trump’s rhetoric and actions against immigrants. I did not mention eugenics, that goes beyond cancel culture. Post World War Two it is associated with Nazism. The Nazis were inspired and influenced by American eugenicists. The most prominent American supporters of eugenics were progressives. So it is fair to say my list is biased towered a 2021 American definition of conservative and right wing.


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