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Henriksson
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06 Jun 2009, 3:56 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
If a friend tells me "I want a sports car" without giving any reasons why, I will be tempted to ask why. If the person just shrugs and say "I just feel like it", it's not like I'm going to take that seriously.

Reasons are the cornerstone of any argument.

Really???? You have never had such a basic urge that questioning it is pointless? I mean, I would think that there ultimately have to be some urges so primal that rationalizing them is only sophistry. Wanting a sports car is likely sufficient for this, because a lot of people don't scrutinize themselves so rigorously, and why should they? Everything withers under certainty, even our foundations. To cite William James: "The philosopher's logical tranquillity is thus in essence no other than the boor's. They differ only as to the point at which each refuses to let further considerations upset the absoluteness of the data he assumes."

I can think of a few reasons to own a sports car. I'm not claiming they are true, or that they are good reasons, but they are reasons.

"I want to show that (or give the appearance) I'm rich."

"I want to attract hot ladies."

"They perform better than regular cars."

"I need one, a gypsy holds my daughter hostage and demands a sports car as ransom payment."

All these are infinitely better than just "I just feel like it". Just doing something for the sake of doing something must be the definition of insanity.


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techstepgenr8tion
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06 Jun 2009, 4:02 pm

Henriksson wrote:
If a friend tells me "I want a sports car" without giving any reasons why, I will be tempted to ask why. If the person just shrugs and say "I just feel like it", it's not like I'm going to take that seriously.


Odds are its a bit abstract. Can you think of any good reason to own a sports car that wouldn't be shot down by someone who thinks that status symbols or fast cars are for the mentally stunted?

I have a friend who has that addiction with sport bikes, feels really incomplete without being able to hop on a 1000cc engine a few times a week.

Henriksson wrote:
Reasons are the cornerstone of any argument.


And often enough reasons are only as good as the person's array of perspective who's challenging them.



techstepgenr8tion
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06 Jun 2009, 4:05 pm

Henriksson wrote:
All these are infinitely better than just "I just feel like it". Just doing something for the sake of doing something must be the definition of insanity.


With belief or lack of belief its the same thing - intuition.



Awesomelyglorious
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06 Jun 2009, 4:05 pm

Henriksson wrote:
I can think of a few reasons to own a sports car. I'm not claiming they are true, or that they are good reasons, but they are reasons.

"I want to show that (or give the appearance) I'm rich."

"I want to attract hot ladies."

"They perform better than regular cars."

"I need one, a gypsy holds my daughter hostage and demands a sports car as ransom payment."

All these are infinitely better than just "I just feel like it". Just doing something for the sake of doing something must be the definition of insanity.

But Henriksson, the thing is that you are just rejecting one foundational point because you prefer other possible foundational points. Why do people dislike pain? Because it is pain! Any other claim about the body or something else is just ridiculous. Why do people want sex? Because it is sex! It is inherently desirable, not because it creates children, or due to some aesthetic, but because it is sex. The same holds for a number of other feelings I would think as well. Why do we love someone? Because we love them! If there were an instrumental reason for this love then we would actually love that instrument and not the person themselves.

The idea that a desire for a car couldn't be the same seems odd(it often isn't, but some people are more "feely"). And given how fundamental the religious impulse is, I would think it is more excusable than that desire for a car.

I don't think that the difference between sanity and insanity is that meaningful, but rather just a matter of social priorities and extreme variation from this. I mean, the existence of a cut-off seems to me to be a matter of arbitrariness to some extent.



ruveyn
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06 Jun 2009, 4:28 pm

Fort56 wrote:

What makes you think houses you see around had builders to build them? Maybe they just put themselves together. Or course they didn't, but neither did the universe.


Given an initial energy source the rest could have been self organizing. Of course these leave the question of where the singularity came from if it came from anywhere. Or maybe matter and energy have always existed. It makes as much sense as assuming that a conscious creative being has always existed.

ruveyn



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07 Jun 2009, 9:52 am

z0rp wrote:
just-me wrote:
z0rp wrote:
And why is that?

Because when people see an awful person they think "god i don't want to be like that!" and so the evil creates good.

That's what I think anyway.

Yes, but why is it that an all knowing God would make such a person awful in the first place?


Ah, but you see the people we see are not really "bad" people they just have problems. But most of the time we cant see that from where we stand.
This is why your not supposed to judge (which is impossible most of the time.)

But to answer your question.
The awful person serves as an example , to show us why we should be good people. If we had not suffered at an awful persons hand then we could not relate to the pain of others and therefor we would feel no remorse for hurting others.

This is the conclusion I have come to.

But eventually some of the awful people find there way to become good people through kindness and patience of others. (or through suffering at another awful persons hand)
My father is one good example.
He used to abuse me but now he is trying to make amends for that. If I had not shown him kindness and forgiveness that would never happen.

Both are needed to create good in the world.

At least that's my belief.



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07 Jun 2009, 9:38 pm

I believe that God did not create man with evil intent or evil desires, but I do believe He created mankind with a free will and consequently with the ability to make a free choice. But choice always comes with the possibility of making a wrong choice.

And it's this freedom that humans have in choosing between doing right and doing wrong, and choosing the wrong, that creates evil, not God.

I believe that had mankind made the right choice from the get-go, evil never would have entered the world. But I also believe that if God had not given us this ability to choose between right and wrong, we would not be humans, we would be robots instead.


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alba
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07 Jun 2009, 11:39 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Fort56 wrote:

What makes you think houses you see around had builders to build them? Maybe they just put themselves together. Or course they didn't, but neither did the universe.


Given an initial energy source the rest could have been self organizing. Of course these leave the question of where the singularity came from if it came from anywhere. Or maybe matter and energy have always existed. It makes as much sense as assuming that a conscious creative being has always existed.

ruveyn


it makes a great deal more sense



Henriksson
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08 Jun 2009, 2:38 am

alba wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fort56 wrote:

What makes you think houses you see around had builders to build them? Maybe they just put themselves together. Or course they didn't, but neither did the universe.


Given an initial energy source the rest could have been self organizing. Of course these leave the question of where the singularity came from if it came from anywhere. Or maybe matter and energy have always existed. It makes as much sense as assuming that a conscious creative being has always existed.

ruveyn


it makes a great deal more sense

Quote:
Occam's razor, also Ockham's razor,[1] is the principle that "entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." It is apocryphally attributed to 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony", "law of economy", or "law of succinctness"): entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity." An alternative version Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate translates "plurality should not be posited without necessity."[2]

When multiple competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. To quote Isaac Newton: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."[3]

To straightforwardly summarize the principle as it is most commonly understood, “Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest is preferable.”

Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim (rule of thumb) that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity, often or especially in scientific theories. Here the same caveat applies to confounding topicality with mere simplicity. (A superficially simple phenomenon may have a complex mechanism behind it. A simple explanation would be simplistic if it failed to capture all the essential and relevant parts. Instead, one should choose the simplest explanation that explains the most data.)

Occam's Razor. Learn to love it.


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z0rp
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08 Jun 2009, 6:10 am

just-me wrote:
Ah, but you see the people we see are not really "bad" people they just have problems. But most of the time we cant see that from where we stand.
This is why your not supposed to judge (which is impossible most of the time.)

I personally do not see people as 'Good' or 'Bad' as I don't think you should classify people so simply. Someone bombs a tower and kills two hundred people, this to most people obviously makes this person bad or evil. However, I'd prefer to see this person as 'confused' or 'mentally ill', or actually look at why this person did what they did and make a decision based on that. And regarding the awful person again, considering this God would choose where you're born, and what environment you grow on, thus basically knowing exactly every event that will happen in your life, this God would have been the one to make this person appear awful to others.

just-me wrote:
But to answer your question.
The awful person serves as an example , to show us why we should be good people. If we had not suffered at an awful persons hand then we could not relate to the pain of others and therefor we would feel no remorse for hurting others.

I'm sure an all powerful lord of the Universe could do better. And on top of that, it's not even very effective and this is at someone's expense. What if you had to be that person? Why doesn't this God just make imaginary people, that only he can tell are fake for example. Although I'm sure this infinitely knowing creature could think of something even better. (If I knew everything I sure could)


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09 Jun 2009, 5:11 am

I don't care whether it exists or not. I refuse to kiss the arse of something so petty, jealous, misogynistic, infanticidal, racist, neglectful, abusive, etc. And don't give me that thing where you tell me that god is beyond human judgement, humans are corrupt and evil total depravity blah blah. It's only beyond judgement because it's the most powerful force in the universe, making that an argumentum ad baculum. God isn't good, and any qualities you ascribe to it are not expressions of reverence for its moral judgement and goodness, only neutral observations of its firepower and the arbitrary conditions for avoiding it. If I appear before its shiny throne after I die, I will flip it the bird before it flings me into hell.



ruveyn
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09 Jun 2009, 10:45 am

Henriksson wrote:
Occam's Razor. Learn to love it.


The Razor is a heuristic, not a necessary metaphysical principle. It is conceivable that in some situations the more complicated explanation is the right one or a better one. Has scientific explanation become simpler over the years? I doubt it. We must resort to some rather deep mathematical models and tools to explain what is going on.

The problem with the Razor is that it applies to cases where there are equally explanatory theories or hypotheses. This almost never happens. Generally the theory that is accepted is one that is clearly better than any of its rivals.

ruveyn



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10 Jun 2009, 12:04 am

ScottF wrote:
Is there really a god?
God derives terminalogisticly through representative conception. This can mean that the term "god" was derived through time phoneticly, etymologicly, and is representative of a concept, shared. The concept is the birth of the will of the mind, con- as in will, and cept as in ceptus, septis or coeptis, syeptys representative I believe in a general sense to wisdom and also mental processes such as in re'cept'ion, de'cept'ion, sept'ic. Also cognate to sept'ember and the numeral 7. So basicly god is a word someone invented or derived from else where. The term signifies power, control, will, influx, etc. All of us have the divine right to exist for here we are. Requiem to existence is motion or thought, action. Everything effects/affects everything. Here we are, right now, within the reflection of all that is, the Universe. You are as the Universe as are we all. The spirit is within each of us. We are all of the mind of the divine.




ScottF wrote:
Why does God give someone a condition like aspergers and then when they screw up hold them at fault for making "judgements" and being bitter?


Would one have to first assume that a. a personified god exist and b. that they were ultimately responsible. Then I suppose you would have to ask gods creator and then perhaps god's creators creator. From a personal perspective, god is the Universe, we are of the Universe and as such we are also god.


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Henriksson
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10 Jun 2009, 6:53 am

Psimulus wrote:
ScottF wrote:
Is there really a god?
God derives terminalogisticly through representative conception. This can mean that the term "god" was derived through time phoneticly, etymologicly, and is representative of a concept, shared. The concept is the birth of the will of the mind, con- as in will, and cept as in ceptus, septis or coeptis, syeptys representative I believe in a general sense to wisdom and also mental processes such as in re'cept'ion, de'cept'ion, sept'ic. Also cognate to sept'ember and the numeral 7. So basicly god is a word someone invented or derived from else where. The term signifies power, control, will, influx, etc. All of us have the divine right to exist for here we are. Requiem to existence is motion or thought, action. Everything effects/affects everything. Here we are, right now, within the reflection of all that is, the Universe. You are as the Universe as are we all. The spirit is within each of us. We are all of the mind of the divine.




ScottF wrote:
Why does God give someone a condition like aspergers and then when they screw up hold them at fault for making "judgements" and being bitter?


Would one have to first assume that a. a personified god exist and b. that they were ultimately responsible. Then I suppose you would have to ask gods creator and then perhaps god's creators creator. From a personal perspective, god is the Universe, we are of the Universe and as such we are also god.

Image


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ruveyn
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10 Jun 2009, 9:06 am

sbcmetroguy wrote:
Quote:
Is there really a God?


No.


The question, per se, is devoid of operational meaning since no one knows who or what God is. How can one ask does X exists if the properties of X are not known and there is no operational way of establishing whether X exists or not even if its properties were known.

ruveyn



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10 Jun 2009, 10:15 am

just-me wrote:
Ah, but you see the people we see are not really "bad" people they just have problems. But most of the time we cant see that from where we stand.

(...)

The awful person serves as an example , to show us why we should be good people. If we had not suffered at an awful persons hand then we could not relate to the pain of others and therefor we would feel no remorse for hurting others.

(...)

Both are needed to create good in the world.


The rationality (and cost-efficiency) of drawing good from our endurance of and opposition to evil eludes me.