Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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magz ∞ Mikah 0

It's really not about scoring points.

What I'm trying to explain is that the war in Ukraine is all about Ukrainians - who are not some passive resource but willful people making their choice and defending it with determination no one expected.

Everyone else is just a third party, making choices about their own responses to this central reality.

It is not defending sovereignty itself that I find stupid, but that there are stupid, reckless and absurdly costly ways to go about it, ways that may even end up costing you your sovereignty. Many think Brexit was stupid in a similar fashion.



A wise choice would have been Ukraine publicly ruling out NATO membership years ago. It has always been a red line for the Russian elite. They probably could have had everything else they wanted from the EU. But we are where we are now. As for fearing the resurgence of the Russian bear - there was and is always a risk of that sort of thing from any country. Do you fear the Germans going full Nazi again when their economy crashes? Or perhaps us perfidious Brits going on international adventures again?



No. But it is not sensible to dismiss everything you dislike or want to disbelieve as Russian disinformation. I've said repeatedly, the only safe position is to disbelieve both sides. Of all the quotes about war, none is more true than "The first casualty of war is Truth".



That doesn't rebut my answer.



I don't know. Fortunately I have never been in a war. I'd like to think it would be possible to fight without knowing that if I get blown up so do several families. What I do know is when the Western press are hostile towards a fighting force - they call such behaviour using "human shields" - to excuse the friendly side their attacks on hospitals, orphanages, civilian homes etc. and presumably because there is always an alternative to holing up in and shooting from buildings that contain civilians.



There's always enough angry and disaffected people everywhere and at any given time to pull off things like this.



It's not impossible, but it wasn't even subtle in Ukraine, as George Friedman said it was the "most blatant coup in history". American politicians were on the streets among the mob egging them on.



The American Empire.



That is certainly valid line criticism to lay on Putin, but also both trivial and trite if you still hold to the idea that only Russia is in the wrong and their invasion was completely unprovoked.



I don't honestly know. The problem is not really what Ukraine desires - but what the US desires. I think if Zelensky actually did seek an end to the conflict along the lines of my hypothetical - I think he would quickly find himself overthrown by a mob egged on by American politicians. How does one fight American three-letter agencies?



He's just butthurt because I called him hysterical in another thread. You could say literally anything and he would award points.



Whatever they believe and however great their personal bravery, they are just pawns in a bigger game and I don't know how else to convince you, I think we just see the world too differently.

No. I don't even recall whatever you're talking about.

Points assigned are a concise way to agree with what magz is saying based on logic and lived experience, and to disagree with what you're saying, which seems to be based on reading propaganda and conspiracy theories.

Ukrainians are fighting for their own country just as many people would fight for theirs. Not sure how that's super difficult to comprehend. Yes, they have international support from US/NATO because russia is in the wrong in this whole mess - invading Ukraine under the false pretences of liberating them from Nazis - pathetic! It's straight up a dick move trying to expand russia again, full stop. Further, russia struck a deal with Ukraine for Ukraine to give up their nukes in exchange for russia to never invade them.. and here we are. Not sure how you can't comprehend that all of that makes Ukrainians willing to fight off russian invaders.

Germany has to prove again and again that they won't turn agressive - yes, we still don't completely trust them. Russia should, too... but they never even tried.
I think I should remind you that 2013/2014 riots started because Yanukovych refused to sign associate treaty with EU.
A narrative that Russia would let Ukraine integrate with EU started only during the current war.

I think it's exactly the opposite: there are always various parties trying to pull various strings but only rarely people are massively pissed off enough to leave their relative comfort of status quo.
Pre-revolution Russia was an awful place to live, even if ultimately the revolution made it even worse (that's common for revolutions).

American politicians? In the crowds?

That rules with iron rod, not accepting anyone step out of the line, blasting every local initiative, always hungry for more and more territorries, turning the lives of conquered autochtons into a nightmare of slavery <music theme from Star Wars and heavy breathing>

Russia is in the wrong and their invasion was completely unprovoked.
They blatantly violate souvereignty and territorial integrity of a neighbouring state.
If they felt threatned, they could amass defences on their own territory.

Oh, come on, if three letters agencies were so almighty, there wouldn't be such a mess in Afghanistan.

You're showing the very original sin of imperialism and colonialism:
Picturing nations as resources to share or fight for by great empires, not as actual peoples with their cultures, social processes and actual, possibly strong opinions on what's happening to them, that might want or not want to ally with you for their own reasons.

You keep ignoring East Europeans when talking about East Europe. If we had a skin color different than yours, I'd say it's racist.

Yes. Did you not know? Several EU figures were there too along with the head of the CIA. They were openly interfering and professing support for the rebels in a way that has not been seen before. Nuland was famously wiretapped and caught conspiring to get "their guy" into office after Yanukovich was chased off. Friedman was right "most blatant" is the only description for it.



That sort of empire fell out of fashion in the 20th century. The American Empire is one of Richard von Kühlmann's "limited sovereignty" - an idea cooked up and attempted by the Germans during the last years of the first world war.



I don't think that was an option. To quote Putin:

It is extremely alarming that elements of the US global defense system are being deployed near Russia. The Mk 41 launchers, which are located in Romania and are to be deployed in Poland, are adapted for launching the Tomahawk strike missiles. If this infrastructure continues to move forward, and if US and NATO missile systems are deployed in Ukraine, their flight time to Moscow will be only 7–10 minutes, or even five minutes for hypersonic systems. This is a huge challenge for us, for our security.

The United States does not possess hypersonic weapons yet, but we know when they will have it…. They will supply hypersonic weapons to Ukraine and then use them as cover…to arm extremists from a neighbouring state and incite them against certain regions of the Russian Federation, such as Crimea, when they think circumstances are favorable.

Do they really think we do not see these threats? Or do they think that we will just stand idly watching threats to Russia emerge? This is the problem: We simply have no room to retreat.

The only defense I can think of is making sure weapon systems of that sort are never deployed. But I'm not a weapons expert. Perhaps you are?



Read up on operations pursued and completed by the CIA and co. in the 20th century that are now declassified and acknowledged as real history, things that were done before the internet even existed - then come back and tell me it's not possible. The internet has made all these operations much easier. Alongside the usual "let's hand out weapons lol" method, what would once have taken an army of spies, media capture and reams of paper propaganda can now be accomplished with twitter bots. Russia was certainly running similar operations in Ukraine too.

Regarding Afghanistan, I do not suggest they are all-powerful, besides that country is a totally different beast. Syria is a better example of failure anyway. It was deliberately destabilised and thrown into chaos by Western powers under US supervision and it ultimately failed because of the Russian intervention on the side of Assad - another reason the US has ramped up its hostility to Russia ever since.



You're talking to a right-wing nationalist remember. I suspect I care more about nations, peoples and cultures than most. This does not conflict with a realist view of the world and international relations.



I think there's a much stronger case to say that you are an anti-Russian racist, magz.



I and others disagree. Here's a nice summary for more open minds: https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-a ... -the-hook/

There's goddamn genocide happening in Ukraine at the hands of the Russians. The proof is about of the same character as the proof of the Holocaust.

Every time Ukrainian troops retake cities and towns, mass graves are found.

The Ukrainians are not doing this to the Russians.

Pics with timestamps, please, proving they started it, not entered when things were already done and largely cleaned up by Ukrainians themselves.

Diffusing the line between an empire and an alliance?
I draw the line: an alliance is something you can leave. If you try to leave an empire, you get attacked by military.
Now, let's try to determine what are NATO (no precedent of leaving but a history of France limiting their participation), EU (Brexit) and Russkyy Mir (Ukraine).

So what should Poland be doing about Iskanders pointing out at Warsaw from Kaliningrad Oblast? Where are we expected to retreat?
No one is pointing rockets at Moscow but Moscow is pointing rockets at Warsaw and shooting rockets at Kyiv. The fact that Putin uses an obvious and drastic double standard here does not bother me. That's what dictators do. It only surprises me that anyone buys it.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ationalist Nothing about interest in other cultures... which fits my experience with actual nationalists of various countries.
Yet you say that Poles "can't think straight about Russia"? (not to mention where this claim took us - that you apparently believed we can't relate to fear of being invaded. Lol. That was positively funny.)
"Realist" = elaborate conspiracies to deny people can have opinions on what happens to them.

Yeah, sure. Especially "racist" when I'm part Russian by ancestry.
Dmitry Muratov is also an anti-Russian racist, right? And everyone else who criticizes Putin for starting this war?

"By all means, let's be open-minded but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
One country invades another because they don't like their preferred choice of allies. You really see nothing wrong with it?

Holocaust had much better logistics, which meant much more horrorous numbers... otherwise, it's all the horrors from 80 years ago - including mobilized Russians recalling Stalin times and his infamous barrier troops.

I hope it lasts much shorter this time. And takes much less lives.

Am aware of the seriousness of this issue , and hate countries and crimes against people That invade other countries.. But
After all it is said that the leader of Ukraine is obviously a U S Puppet . This has always concerned me as to the reality of independent government in Ukraine

Supported by US - most likely.
Puppet - nope.
It was his initiative that he stayed in Kyiv despite Americans offering him a lift at the start of the invasion - very unlike e.g. the US-backed president of Afghanistan.
Zelenskyy represents the interest of his own nation. It happens to converge with ours*, so we support him. That's generally how trade and politics work.
___________
*I'm Polish

I suppose the Ukraine war can be summed up as an idiot trying to fix the problems left by a bigger idiot (yeltsin), using idiotic means

How did Yeltsin create ....whatever "problem" it is...that Putin is trying to 'solve' by trying to beat the crap out of Ukraine?

According to an urban legend here, Yeltsin lost a drinking competition with Kwaśniewski, whith agreement to NATO expension as the stake.
But it's only an urban legend.

Anyway, several nations in East Europe are genuinely celebrating that we can be part of the "first world" now, with all that it means - and Ukrainians are literally fighting for a right to join us.