Islam is a pro-Aspergers religion (unlike Christianity)

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Uh, no. Some of you dislike anybody who has any belief whatsoever. And you're just as ridiculous as the zealots at times.

All people of varying religious or materialistic persuasions have varying degrees of knowledge relating to those beliefs. Atheists in general seem to have a longer history of rehearsing their arguments, presenting those arguments, and rigorously defending those positions logically. Christians have had the advantage of holding the more oft accepted viewpoint, hence no need for defending their viewpoints beyond internal disagreements.

Simply being an atheist doesn't mean you know what you're talking about and automatically that other people don't. I don't get the impression that MasterJedi is as secure in his thinking as some of the more mature PPR posters. The same tactics used against Christian viewpoints are just as valid against atheists, and thus they are not immune to fallacies. Christians do well to learn to recognize what those are and call others on them.

It is true, however, that not everyone is welcome in atheism. I love how you distinguished between Catholics and Christians! Catholics ARE Christian. It is one of many divisions of Christianity, but they're Christian, too! Anyway, merely not liking something is not enough to discredit it. Many atheists have made it CLEAR exactly how far their objections to religion go, and it is not friendly.

AngelRho,

How was it a warm act of love as ben10scotland stated? Is that how we are to show love to all businessmen out there who are trying to make as much money as they can possibly make from the people that they serve? It simply sounds quite maniacal to me.

And you simply made up the part about the merchants overcharging the poor people, as you somehow admit. Nowhere in the Bible does it say what you said.

For all we know, Jesus was just a maniac who claimed to be from God and speak for Him. So it wouldn't have been a surprise to see Him cause such a riot for no particular reason other than that he was an extremist who liked to cause trouble (like Fred Phelps). A normal person wouldn't have done such a thing.

So Jesus' incident at the temple courtyard was constructive ...

Got ya'.

^^^^

Have you ever been yelled at by a parent? The parent loves you when you are being disciplined. I think what seems to offend you most here is that Christ is claiming to have authority over you. Haven't I seen you repeatedly complain that God should do more? It seems to me you are rather like the ex-leper in 'The Life of Brian', there is just no pleasing you.

Yeah, my mom used to yell at me and spank me when I was being a naughty kid. And I know she loves me dearly. That's why she did it.

My dad also used to yell at me, but never out of love. It was always him taking it out on all of us (his family) for no real reason other than to satisfy his narcissistic mind. A lot of emotional and psychological abuse from him. And we definitely didn't deserve it.

So there's a limit to how a normal parent disciplines his/her children just as there's a limit to how a normal person handles merchants ripping poor people off their money (that's assuming that the merchants were overcharging the Jewish poor people).

To do what Jesus did is an indication that the man was a maniac, nothing less.



My father (who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder) can't please me. What makes you think an imaginary/exaggerated character like Yahweh/Jesus can?

I'm only happy with the existence of a God that isn't concerned at all by its creation because that would be the only God that would make sense logically.

My legitimate sympathies with your family position. I had a realativly similar experience with to my Step Father. As to your view of Christ's clearing the temple, I think that Christ was making a legitimate point, often when I see the selling of books in some Churches I wish I had the spiritual authority to tell them to do that some place else. Though my interpretation of the event may be off, I still think it is worth just leaving places of worship as they are. As to the existence and nature of God, I tend to think of morality as existing in an objective way and that this objective morality is as much a part of God as his omnipotence and omnipresence.

Either you misphrased the situation, or your theology can be used to argue that God does not love sinners.

As for God doing more, this seems legitimate if one holds that this is a suboptimal state of affairs that would be better if God did more. Now, the issue is that our sense that it is legitimate to identify better and worse states of affairs is pretty solid, in spite of the possibility of skepticism, therefore, I see the objection presented as valid.

I may well have misphrased, but why do you think that?

"The parent loves you when you are being disciplined."

I assume by "disciplined" you refer to a behavior. The problem is that standard Christian doctrine tends to uphold that the whole of mankind is undisciplined to the point where an eternity of burning is the most rational outcome.

Unless of course the sellers really were dishonest. And Jesus knew what He was talking about and doing.

That's possible. Right?

If so Yashki Pundric should have first complained to a beth din (rabbinical court) for dealing with price gouging.

ruveyn

AewomlelyGlorious,, that is exactly the question I have with both standard Christian and Muslim theology. I have asked Muslims and Christians, why we would be disciplined with eternal burning. The fundamentailists of both religions don't realize Hell is a Zoroastrian-Greek concept. The Hebrews and Samaritans never believed in this. They say all the dead sleep in Sheol. The Hebrews that do accept afterlife simply say the evil will be resurrected to shame. There are Christians and some Sufi Muslims who believe that Hell is the garbage pit outside Jerusalem and it is an allegory for shame. Also refuse is burned there. The garbage, however, is not tortured for eternity.

I do not think that there is an implicit contradiction in what I am saying. It seems to me that in almost all cases Christ forgoes any punishment or support for retribution. When he does act, it certainly seems to me that it is far more likely than not that he is both justified in that action and loving. Neither I think really has any real impact on his desire for our salvation.

Hey, I've been there, too. Not that this justifies what my dad did, but he was diabetic, smoked, and did not handle either health concerns very well. This might be a horrible thing to say, but I always thought that watching him slowly fall apart at the end of his life was poetic justice for what I'd been put through for about 10 years. He was the kind of guy who knew how to quote scripture as was convenient but never acted as though any of it applied to him.

My step-father was the complete opposite. He never yelled at me or abused my mom in any way, but he took being self-righteous to a whole new level. He's the main reason I rarely go home anymore and why there's any tension at all between my wife and my mom (quick fix: I just do something my mom thinks is stupid and suddenly my wife is the beloved daughter she always wanted).

It makes me sad to see the one person who is representing Islam on WP has taken up the ignorant attitude that many of today's Muslims are exihbting, as well as the similar ignorant attitudes from many of those who replied.
"My/your religion is true/false" in and of itself is not a logically sound arguement. Its fine if you believe what you believe, but you will convince others of it with this "I'm right and your wrong because I'm right and your wrong" attitude. Shame on all the posters using such flawed rehtoric.
May I ask posters to politely refrain from personally attacking Muhammed and Jesus and other religious figures? Its not any of their fault if their followers are idiots.

My mother married a Libyan when I was very young, and I grew up in Libya. I am fluent in Arabbic and I have read much of the Koran in the original Arabic, and being a non-conformist Aspie, I did my best take the words what the words themselves are saying, and not I'm told they are saying.
I feel that Islam is the most misunderstood religion in today's world; not only by non-Muslims, but by a very large percentage of the Islamic world as well. Much of the Islamic world is poor, poorly educated, and under the opression of Exteremist Totalitarian regeims which often use religion as a tool to control the thinking of the masses.
My experience, living in Libya for many years, is that Muslims are generally welcoming of anyone who is Muslim, regardless of race or national origin. That being said, there is some racism toward immigrants from poor countries. On the other hand, despite distaste for the West's political practices, Americans and Europian are often welcome and respected by most of the populace. The common beleif is that everyone in the West is Christian (with an influential minority of Jews who control everything from the media to the government, particularly in America), leading to the beleif that Christianity is morally degraded religion which promotes sex, homosexuality, pornography, alcohol, and interest. Ah, the irony! Shari'iah law is not inforced. It is socially acceptable to neglect one's daily and Friday prayer's. Women are not forced to cover their heads or faces, but many choose to as they see as their duty, and are completely comfortable with it.
I also have made two extended visits to Egypt, and found much of the same there.
As for tolerrance: it seems to me that that most religions lose much of their tolerrance for others when they become dominant in a society, regardless of what that religion is.

The enemity many Muslims feel toward the West is not just about the crusades, but has a lot more to do with the modern and relevant Israel/Palestine conflict. Please try to consider their point of view: The Palastenians are opressed and their land is occupied by Israel. Israel's expansions are continuing to drive more and more Palastenians out of their homes. And Israel has the backing of America in the West. How would you feel if you were in that position? Muslims see this as a continuation of the West being "out to get them." In that context, the Crusades remain relevant.

As for Christanity being intollerant of Aspies: According to the Bible, The Pharsies shunned anyone who was ill or disabled, using as their excuse that such ailments are punishment from God, and thus proof of their wickedness. Jesus condemned this view. He welcomed and accepted the "undesirables" and eeven used his powers to cure the blind and crippled. However, when I was writing a paper about deafness in college, I discovered that the Chucrch at one point condemned the deaf, because they are not capable of hearing the Word of God (like that's their fault or something!). I can't remember who this quote is from: "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians."

Seems to me that Jesus and Muhammed both preached tolerrance, but many modern Christians and Muslims preach bigotry.

Thanks for the sympathies.

Well, I would understand someone devoted to serving God having such an issue with selling books at churches or temples, but why would you want to go start whipping stuff just to make a point (especially after you've been preaching about love and kindness and an attitude of no violence)?

I know this offends Christians when I say this, but I really believe Jesus had a very unstable moral character. He preached unconditional love but practiced a narcissistic kind of love. You see this while reading the Gospel books and you wonder what Jesus was really like in His real life interactions with His disciples: rebuking Peter in a very harsh way for wanting to protect Him from death, being quite rude to a Gentile woman who was begging Him for help (even though He ended up helping her out), not caring for the fact that a woman wasted expensive ointment for His own feet, and other things that I can't remember at the moment.

Not to mention that He had this delusion that He was God and from God and that He was the only way to God His Father.

Too many traits and qualities to show that He exhibited what modern psychology labels as Narcissistic Personality Disorder (the same as what my father has). Note that my father gives a very good impression about himself to people outside the family to the point that he is admired by many people who have interacted with him but not long enough to see what he's really like as a person. And then there are those who seem so loyal to him that whatever narcissistic acts he ends up showing are always explained away by them as normal traits that even a good man with a good heart may have. In reality, he has a very manipulative and controlling nature that only cares for the self. Any son/daughter that he may have is either just a prized possession of his (if that child behaves well according to his standards and gives him a lot of narcissistic supply) or a curse (that dares to question the personhood and character of a great man like him and refuses to blindly give him what he demands). We're all just objects to such a person. To him, he's the only real human being with real feelings and real rights.

Similarly, Jesus was depicted in the Bible as a man with such traits that it'd be hard for someone who's not Christian (like me) to know about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and not say that Jesus might have had it.

That's why I shake my head when anyone preaches about love and then mentions how God/Jesus loves us so much. I mean, we really don't need God/Jesus to learn how to love people. Even atheists can show love to others.



Logically speaking, there is no logical necessity for objective morality. This does not mean that it's not practically necessary, though.