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Feminism vs. Equality

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 3:09 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:

? It's not a matter of advantage how can the law be trusted if it is carried out in a completely closed manner. And yes if there was an issue in the judgment of rape laws men would be affected more.(Well depending, if it was an issue resulting in more false accusations being ruled as valid it would affect men, if it was the other way with valid claims being thrown out then it would affect women more.)

EDIT


I understand all of that. However, you seemed to have been against closed trials because it somehow showed inequality. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then I'll back out. :-)


Well it does show inequality, the complete closing of trials in Sweden shows a lack of concern in both a fair trial(In regards to rape) and in issues which might affect men more than women. If fair trials were of interest then the trial itself would be open to the public while shielding the victim if their privacy was a concern. If the issues of men were a concern the trials would have never been closed and only the victims name would be cut off from the public.


I disagree. Even if the public doesn't know the identity of the victim, they're still talking about it and making judgements. Do you have any idea what it's like to deal with that?

I'm also curious why you think closed trials adversely affect men more than women.

I should make it perfectly clear right here that I am not okay with closed trials.


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Last edited by TeaEarlGreyHot on 30 Mar 2011, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bethie
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30 Mar 2011, 3:10 pm

Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 3:16 pm

Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


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Bethie
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30 Mar 2011, 3:22 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


Sooo, TEGH...

is it not true that you had quite a history for inviting people into your home?

In fact, you were well-known for showing off your possessions.

Maybe Bethie got the impression you wanted to give HER some of them on that night.


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Last edited by Bethie on 30 Mar 2011, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:23 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:

? It's not a matter of advantage how can the law be trusted if it is carried out in a completely closed manner. And yes if there was an issue in the judgment of rape laws men would be affected more.(Well depending, if it was an issue resulting in more false accusations being ruled as valid it would affect men, if it was the other way with valid claims being thrown out then it would affect women more.)

EDIT


I understand all of that. However, you seemed to have been against closed trials because it somehow showed inequality. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then I'll back out. :-)


Well it does show inequality, the complete closing of trials in Sweden shows a lack of concern in both a fair trial(In regards to rape) and in issues which might affect men more than women. If fair trials were of interest then the trial itself would be open to the public while shielding the victim if their privacy was a concern. If the issues of men were a concern the trials would have never been closed and only the victims name would be cut off from the public.


I disagree. Even if the public doesn't know the identity of the victim, they're still talking about it and making judgements. Do you have any idea what it's like to deal with that?


No I don't, but thats the price of a trial. The victim gets punishment for the person who raped her as well as knowledge that the perpetrator is in prison unable to do more harm to others, and to do this she has to have a trial. It may pain the victim emotionally to go through a trial but that is no excuse to forgo a proper trial.

Quote:
I'm also curious why you think closed trials adversely affect men more than women.


I said can affect men more than women(Really closed trials just open the courts for more error.), more men are accused of rape therefore if there is an error in the trial proceedings which convicts defendants on false claims then men are affected more. The same principle works if you apply it to a scenario where the valid claims of victims are being thrown out.

Quote:
I should make it perfectly clear right here that I am not okay with closed trials.



ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:26 pm

Bethie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


Sooo, TEGH...

is it not true that you had quite a history for inviting people into your home?


Rape shield laws prevent that in the only venue where it matters, the court.(And a judge wouldn't accept that argument so you using that as an example is just silly)

Quote:
In fact, you were well-known for showing off your possessions.


Rape shield laws.

Quote:
Maybe Bethie got the impression you wanted to give HER some of them on that night.


And again rape shield laws prevent any unreasonable salvaging into past sexual behavior.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 3:31 pm

ikorack wrote:
Bethie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


Sooo, TEGH...

is it not true that you had quite a history for inviting people into your home?


Rape shield laws prevent that in the only venue where it matters, the court.(And a judge wouldn't accept that argument so you using that as an example is just silly)

Quote:
In fact, you were well-known for showing off your possessions.


Rape shield laws.

Quote:
Maybe Bethie got the impression you wanted to give HER some of them on that night.


And again rape shield laws prevent any unreasonable salvaging into past sexual behavior.


Rape shield laws don't prevent this line of questioning from the defense. If it did, women wouldn't be leaving the courtroom saying they had to prove it was rape by way of being asked if they are sexually active and what they were wearing.

Bethie's example is actually right on target.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 3:32 pm

Bethie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


Sooo, TEGH...

is it not true that you had quite a history for inviting people into your home?

In fact, you were well-known for showing off your possessions.

Maybe Bethie got the impression you wanted to give HER some of them on that night.


Exactly.


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ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:40 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Rape shield laws don't prevent this line of questioning from the defense. If it did, women wouldn't be leaving the courtroom saying they had to prove it was rape by way of being asked if they are sexually active and what they were wearing.

Bethie's example is actually right on target.


Some rape shield laws limit the line of questioning for sexual behavior unrelated to the victims relationship with the defendant. That's as much as can be expected though, it is the jobs defense to provide doubt, and it is the prosecutions job to prove their case. Are you suggesting this be circumvented for rape trials? Can you provide logical reasons? I have heard of no rape defendant found not guilty based on any of those arguments in my lifetime, so I don't see bethies arguments as on target at all.



MotherKnowsBest
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30 Mar 2011, 3:45 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
How are closed rape trials an example of inequality? Aren't they closed to protect the victim?


Justice cannot be done in the shadows, and men are the primary defendants in rape trials. How does a closed trial protect the alleged victim?

EDIt Fixed some wording, also even if you can argue that it does protect the alleged victim in some way how does the justify a trial done without public accountability.


Actually it's another example of equality for men for you to ignore. In many countries the identities of rape victims are protected. Sweden felt this practise was unfair to men so the decision was taken to hold the trial in camera to protect the identities of innocent men. The records of the trial become public only if he is convicted. But go ahead, ignore this to.

Edited to add: The trial is held in public if both sides want it that way.



Inuyasha
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30 Mar 2011, 3:48 pm

Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
More women do yoga than men, does that mean men are discriminated against

That is actually more due to us men not having vaginas 8) :wink:


Contrary to popular belief, women can also be rapists just they tend not to get reported.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 3:50 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Rape shield laws don't prevent this line of questioning from the defense. If it did, women wouldn't be leaving the courtroom saying they had to prove it was rape by way of being asked if they are sexually active and what they were wearing.

Bethie's example is actually right on target.


Some rape shield laws limit the line of questioning for sexual behavior unrelated to the victims relationship with the defendant. That's as much as can be expected though, it is the jobs defense to provide doubt, and it is the prosecutions job to prove their case. Are you suggesting this be circumvented for rape trials? Can you provide logical reasons? I have heard of no rape defendant found not guilty based on any of those arguments in my lifetime, so I don't see bethies arguments as on target at all.


I'm not going to go dig up examples just because you don't believe me. You can either choose to take what I say as a possibility or choose to disregard what I say.

I'm not in the habit of proving what I know to be true to someone over the internet.


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ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:51 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
How are closed rape trials an example of inequality? Aren't they closed to protect the victim?


Justice cannot be done in the shadows, and men are the primary defendants in rape trials. How does a closed trial protect the alleged victim?

EDIt Fixed some wording, also even if you can argue that it does protect the alleged victim in some way how does the justify a trial done without public accountability.


Actually it's another example of equality for men for you to ignore. In many countries the identities of rape victims are protected. Sweden felt this practise was unfair to men so the decision was taken to hold the trial in camera to protect the identities of innocent men. The records of the trial become public only if he is convicted. But go ahead, ignore this to.

Edited to add: The trial is held in public if both sides want it that way.


Ah did not know that, that is did not know that the records were released on a conviction, that I suppose makes it fair. Also did not know that one could object, I could not find the actual Swedish laws so I could only work off of secondary sources.

Any other examples? You see it is not always a matter of actively ignoring.



Inuyasha
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30 Mar 2011, 3:53 pm

And then there is the phony rape accusations like we saw in the Duke Lacross case, in which one of the boys had an ironclad alibi proving that he wasn't even there to begin with...



ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:55 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Rape shield laws don't prevent this line of questioning from the defense. If it did, women wouldn't be leaving the courtroom saying they had to prove it was rape by way of being asked if they are sexually active and what they were wearing.

Bethie's example is actually right on target.


Some rape shield laws limit the line of questioning for sexual behavior unrelated to the victims relationship with the defendant. That's as much as can be expected though, it is the jobs defense to provide doubt, and it is the prosecutions job to prove their case. Are you suggesting this be circumvented for rape trials? Can you provide logical reasons? I have heard of no rape defendant found not guilty based on any of those arguments in my lifetime, so I don't see bethies arguments as on target at all.


I'm not going to go dig up examples just because you don't believe me. You can either choose to take what I say as a possibility or choose to disregard what I say.

I'm not in the habit of proving what I know to be true to someone over the internet.


So be it, but you shouldn't ask people to believe you on your word when what they know to be true contradicts what you say. As I have said I know of no rapist going free on the basis of such arguments.(Which is to say mere insinuations do not free rapists)



ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 3:58 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
And then there is the phony rape accusations like we saw in the Duke Lacross case, in which one of the boys had an ironclad alibi proving that he wasn't even there to begin with...


Gah, they where not convicted all is well. and all though that case has had some negative side effects they still went free.