Why aren't atheists agnostic?

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Sopho
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28 May 2007, 12:56 pm

Ragtime wrote:

But that's just it: It's not a matter of how I'd "feel", it's a matter of what the truth is. I take it you don't believe in absolute truth, so that the phrase "the truth" would be a contradiction in terms. I accept that, but I do believe in absolute truth. I don't believe in making my own truth. So you see, I am thereby inflexible when confronted with a plurality of "truths", each of which contradicting the others.

Oh my... I just remembered something. Would you say you're logical? If so, then I have a surprise for you: You believe in absolute truth! The First Law of Logic is the Law of Non-contradiction. It means that, whatever this may be, there is precisely one truth binding everything. Therefore, it is impossible to use logic without accepting absolute truth.

I've never said I don't believe in 'truth.'
I don't believe in what you think is 'truth' though. So you should not have the right to inflict your beliefs on me. I don't try and stop straight people getting married, do I?

greenblue
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28 May 2007, 12:59 pm

Ragtime wrote:

It's really not a matter of real truth. It's actually a matter of what you believe is truth.
See the difference?

kt-64
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28 May 2007, 1:01 pm

Truth is irrellevant we all end up wormfood anyways.

sigholdaccountlost
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28 May 2007, 1:03 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Gays are 1 in 10. That's hardly an equal split of tax dollars. There's a higher percentage of Christians in my country than in yours. And, as a solution to the taxes-going-to-the-wrong-causes dilemma, I invite all gays to find a big island somewhere and start their own country -- it's not that hard -- which would be 100% gay-supportive. Then they wouldn't have to keep whining at us to change our faith, and we wouldn't keep having to ask them to kindly back off.

What? I'm not whining at your to change your faith. I don't give a sh** about your faith, all I want is for you to keep it out of MY life. If gays are 1 in 10 then gay marriages would be around 1 in 10 as well. So the tax argument doesn't work. Why should my taxes only go to straight marriages, yet I can't marry a woman?
It wouldn't actually be that easy for me to find my own island full of gay people actually either. I shouldn't have to leave my family anyway just because some weird Christians don't want me to have equal rights.

I'll keep out of anyone's life who doesn't interfere with the practice of my faith. The Christian faith is a way of living, permeating every interaction with others -- it's not simply praise-n-worship time on Sundays, or somesuch thing that can be "kept to oneself". When I was little, my friend's mom told me that I should keep my Christianity to myself -- an exhortation we often hear today. Only problem with it is it's the definition of a biblical Christian to share his or her faith. It's not a selfish religion, where we say, "Good for us; let everyone else burn", or, "Live and let damn." Not sharing the vitally necessary truth of Christ with the rest of the world would be an act of pure hatred on our parts! One Greek word for the Christian faith is "scandalon", from where we get "scandal", originally meaning "offense". Christ said that His message always offends initially, by its very nature, because it points out the truth that we are all in the wrong. No one wants to hear that, but in the end, that truth sets them free after they accept it and its solution.

You should not have the right to legally and politically inflict your beliefs on me though. I think Christianity is weird and pointless, it irritates me. Yet I do not try and prevent you from going to church, praying to your 'god,' believing whaterv you want to believe. What if my religion dictated that it was wrong to be straight, and only gay people get into heaven? Should I then campaign to ban heterosexual marriage? Try and see this from my point of view. If the majority of society was gay, how would you feel if we stopped you having the same rights on the basis that we believed it was wrong?

Logic is one of the most important tools, perhaps the most important tool but it is not the only one.

An uber-logical person said that.

But that's not the point:

Who said your truth was the absolute truth, other than you?

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greenblue
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28 May 2007, 1:14 pm

Ragtime, you just showed the lack of knowledge or ignorace when it comes how gay attraction works, you just asked Soph how is that. You proof the ignorance about it. But asking questions similar like "How can you be grossed by men?" and "Do you hate men?" is, I am sure is ignorance, but hetero-sexism as well.

You just put to the light that you don't understand homosexuality as it is. That is why it makes it easier for people to promote homophobia, because they don't understand it.

Sadly, many people have to be gay themselves to actually understand them, to understand how they feel, to understand how unfair straight sexism is for them, but that wouldn't happen, would it?

The good news is that not all people have to be gay themselves to understand them, and to protect them

greenblue
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28 May 2007, 1:17 pm

This whole thread is actually entertaining
and educative as well

or is it just me? :oops:

Last edited by greenblue on 28 May 2007, 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sopho
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28 May 2007, 1:17 pm

Ragtime wrote:

So what's the "missing piece" in liking them in every way, I wonder?)

And I just thought I should add: There is no "missing piece". I have nothing wrong with me, being gay is not an illness, it is simply a difference, much like AS. The way I like women is exactly the same way that a straight man likes women.

Ragtime
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28 May 2007, 1:17 pm

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I've never said I don't believe in 'truth.'
I don't believe in what you think is 'truth' though.

That's totally okay. The point I'm making is that people who believe both in the Bible and the laws of logic, logically cannot believe that anything that contradicts the Bible is true. Before you say "But...", tell me if that sentence is cogent.

Sopho
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28 May 2007, 1:20 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I've never said I don't believe in 'truth.'
I don't believe in what you think is 'truth' though.

I understand that that is what you believe.

sigholdaccountlost
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28 May 2007, 1:21 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I've never said I don't believe in 'truth.'
I don't believe in what you think is 'truth' though.

Of course, that makes sense. It's just...other people have other truths.

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greenblue
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28 May 2007, 1:28 pm

Ragtime wrote:

if I did believe in the laws of logic, I'd also believe in the Bible ...

as an historical treasure

:wink:

Sopho
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28 May 2007, 1:29 pm

The Bible is a great piece of fiction. :wink:
And you're right, it's useful for historians too.
But for what I focus on, I prefer census records.

Ragtime
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28 May 2007, 1:38 pm

greenblue wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

It's really not a matter of real truth. It's actually a matter of what you believe is truth.
See the difference?

You're right, greenblue, but first one has to establish that absolute truth actually exists, before one can go about determining what it may be. A lot of people don't believe in absolute truth.

sigholdaccountlost
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28 May 2007, 1:42 pm

Ragtime wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

It's really not a matter of real truth. It's actually a matter of what you believe is truth.
See the difference?

You're right, greenblue, but first one has to establish that absolute truth actually exists, before one can go about determining what it may be. A lot of people don't believe in absolute truth.

Eh. No-one's going to ask me about absolute truth in a job interview so...

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Ragtime
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28 May 2007, 1:43 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Please, please try to stay on topic. I'm not going to claim that my absolute truth is true. That's not necessary for me to do. What is necessary is for us to determine whether we believe in 1) relative truth, or 2)absolute truth. Please state which one you subscribe to, and please everyone else as well. I've picked option 2. I've gone first, now it's your turn.

greenblue
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28 May 2007, 1:47 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Eh. No-one's going to ask me about absolute truth in a job interview so...

If your boss is religious, definitely not :lol:

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