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Feminism vs. Equality

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MotherKnowsBest
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30 Mar 2011, 3:59 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


It's actually worse than that. Most cases of rape involve someone known to the victim. The trial is not about whether or not this was the person who did it. The trial is about whether the victim was actually raped or not. If a burglar is cleared, we don't tell the victims that they weren't actually burgled. When a rape conviction isn't secured, we are telling rape victims that we don't believe they were raped.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 4:01 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Rape shield laws don't prevent this line of questioning from the defense. If it did, women wouldn't be leaving the courtroom saying they had to prove it was rape by way of being asked if they are sexually active and what they were wearing.

Bethie's example is actually right on target.


Some rape shield laws limit the line of questioning for sexual behavior unrelated to the victims relationship with the defendant. That's as much as can be expected though, it is the jobs defense to provide doubt, and it is the prosecutions job to prove their case. Are you suggesting this be circumvented for rape trials? Can you provide logical reasons? I have heard of no rape defendant found not guilty based on any of those arguments in my lifetime, so I don't see bethies arguments as on target at all.


I'm not going to go dig up examples just because you don't believe me. You can either choose to take what I say as a possibility or choose to disregard what I say.

I'm not in the habit of proving what I know to be true to someone over the internet.


So be it, but you shouldn't ask people to believe you on your word when what they know to be true contradicts what you say. As I have said I know of no rapist going free on the basis of such arguments.(Which is to say mere insinuations do not free rapists)


I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I've stated my position and asked you to clarify yours. That's it.


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Inuyasha
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30 Mar 2011, 4:03 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


It's actually worse than that. Most cases of rape involve someone known to the victim. The trial is not about whether or not this was the person who did it. The trial is about whether the victim was actually raped or not. If a burglar is cleared, we don't tell the victims that they weren't actually burgled. When a rape conviction isn't secured, we are telling rape victims that we don't believe they were raped.


There are also people that to get revenge on someone will claim that they were raped by that individual.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 4:03 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


It's actually worse than that. Most cases of rape involve someone known to the victim. The trial is not about whether or not this was the person who did it. The trial is about whether the victim was actually raped or not. If a burglar is cleared, we don't tell the victims that they weren't actually burgled. When a rape conviction isn't secured, we are telling rape victims that we don't believe they were raped.


Yes, I know. Abuse of all kinds is a special interest of mine. I've studied it quite extensively, including the social and societal implications/perceptions of it.

My example was just a simple way of getting my point across without getting too in-depth.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 4:08 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


It's actually worse than that. Most cases of rape involve someone known to the victim. The trial is not about whether or not this was the person who did it. The trial is about whether the victim was actually raped or not. If a burglar is cleared, we don't tell the victims that they weren't actually burgled. When a rape conviction isn't secured, we are telling rape victims that we don't believe they were raped.


There are also people that to get revenge on someone will claim that they were raped by that individual.


This is true. However, false rape claims are not the norm. More often than not, rape victims never come forward. This gives us an inaccurate picture of ratios on false claims versus legitimate claims.


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MotherKnowsBest
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30 Mar 2011, 4:09 pm

ikorack wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
How are closed rape trials an example of inequality? Aren't they closed to protect the victim?


Justice cannot be done in the shadows, and men are the primary defendants in rape trials. How does a closed trial protect the alleged victim?

EDIt Fixed some wording, also even if you can argue that it does protect the alleged victim in some way how does the justify a trial done without public accountability.


Actually it's another example of equality for men for you to ignore. In many countries the identities of rape victims are protected. Sweden felt this practise was unfair to men so the decision was taken to hold the trial in camera to protect the identities of innocent men. The records of the trial become public only if he is convicted. But go ahead, ignore this to.

Edited to add: The trial is held in public if both sides want it that way.


Ah did not know that, that is did not know that the records were released on a conviction, that I suppose makes it fair. Also did not know that one could object, I could not find the actual Swedish laws so I could only work off of secondary sources.

Any other examples? You see it is not always a matter of actively ignoring.


OK, I'll give you one more example of feminism in Sweden has benefited men, then you'll have to research further yourself. In Sweden, any place where a man is allowed to go bare chested, eg the beach, the swimming pool, the sauna, women are also allowed to go bare chested. And they do.



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30 Mar 2011, 4:13 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

OK, I'll give you one more example of feminism in Sweden has benefited men, then you'll have to research further yourself. In Sweden, any place where a man is allowed to go bare chested, eg the beach, the swimming pool, the sauna, women are also allowed to go bare chested. And they do.


Some days I would give just about anything for this ability.


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MotherKnowsBest
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30 Mar 2011, 4:18 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:

OK, I'll give you one more example of feminism in Sweden has benefited men, then you'll have to research further yourself. In Sweden, any place where a man is allowed to go bare chested, eg the beach, the swimming pool, the sauna, women are also allowed to go bare chested. And they do.


Some days I would give just about anything for this ability.


Not me, I'm far too British. The first time I went to the swimming pool I was like this 8O



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30 Mar 2011, 4:19 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:

OK, I'll give you one more example of feminism in Sweden has benefited men, then you'll have to research further yourself. In Sweden, any place where a man is allowed to go bare chested, eg the beach, the swimming pool, the sauna, women are also allowed to go bare chested. And they do.


Some days I would give just about anything for this ability.


Not me, I'm far too British. The first time I went to the swimming pool I was like this 8O


lol I just don't like wearing clothes. If I could get away with being topless, I would.


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ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 6:59 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Rape:

The only crime in the world where the VICTIM is the one put on trial.


Exactly. When someone has their house broken into, the defense doesn't ask why they didn't have an alarm system.


It's actually worse than that. Most cases of rape involve someone known to the victim. The trial is not about whether or not this was the person who did it. The trial is about whether the victim was actually raped or not. If a burglar is cleared, we don't tell the victims that they weren't actually burgled. When a rape conviction isn't secured, we are telling rape victims that we don't believe they were raped.


But you can't just start throwing people into jail if the evidence is lacking that would be a bastardization of the court. And the trial is about if this is the person who did it. Otherwise(Going by your the trial is to see if the woman was raped) if a rape conviction didn't go through wouldn't the woman then be automatically tried for that crime about false reports to the police(The one thats like obstruction of justice, I can't remember the name right now.)

@Tea There is no academic study on false rape claims. I can't imagine such a study being easy either, it would rely mostly on the willingness of someone to admit to a crime. Combine that with unreported rapes and it would be damn near impossible to get an honest number,

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
ikorack wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
How are closed rape trials an example of inequality? Aren't they closed to protect the victim?


Justice cannot be done in the shadows, and men are the primary defendants in rape trials. How does a closed trial protect the alleged victim?

EDIt Fixed some wording, also even if you can argue that it does protect the alleged victim in some way how does the justify a trial done without public accountability.


Actually it's another example of equality for men for you to ignore. In many countries the identities of rape victims are protected. Sweden felt this practise was unfair to men so the decision was taken to hold the trial in camera to protect the identities of innocent men. The records of the trial become public only if he is convicted. But go ahead, ignore this to.

Edited to add: The trial is held in public if both sides want it that way.


Ah did not know that, that is did not know that the records were released on a conviction, that I suppose makes it fair. Also did not know that one could object, I could not find the actual Swedish laws so I could only work off of secondary sources.

Any other examples? You see it is not always a matter of actively ignoring.


OK, I'll give you one more example of feminism in Sweden has benefited men, then you'll have to research further yourself. In Sweden, any place where a man is allowed to go bare chested, eg the beach, the swimming pool, the sauna, women are also allowed to go bare chested. And they do.


That isn't a benefit to men that is a benefit to women. Even though I'm sure some men would enjoy that.



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30 Mar 2011, 7:29 pm

ikorack wrote:
@Tea There is no academic study on false rape claims. I can't imagine such a study being easy either, it would rely mostly on the willingness of someone to admit to a crime. Combine that with unreported rapes and it would be damn near impossible to get an honest number,


Yes, I realize that. Claiming legitimate victims should have their character attacked because a small percentage of reported cases are false is rather odd.

The fact that many more cases go unreported makes it even less likely that a woman saying she was raped is lying.


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30 Mar 2011, 7:36 pm

ikorack wrote:
LKL wrote:
ikorack wrote:
I question why you are defending an institution which encourages traditional gender roles.

WTF?
Have you been reading anything I've written?
Other readers, do you also have the impression that I have been "defending an institution that encourages traditional gender roles," or have I actually gotten my point across to people other than Ikorack?


Custody laws reward the person who follows the traditional female role with custody, and this does indeed seem to be a law your defending, feel free to correct me. Do you have a problem with my other statements?

Custody laws reward the person who takes care of the children, because that is what is better for the children. The point of feminism is that this is not necessarily a female role.



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30 Mar 2011, 7:37 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
@Tea There is no academic study on false rape claims. I can't imagine such a study being easy either, it would rely mostly on the willingness of someone to admit to a crime. Combine that with unreported rapes and it would be damn near impossible to get an honest number,


Yes, I realize that. Claiming legitimate victims should have their character attacked because a small percentage of reported cases are false is rather odd.

The fact that many more cases go unreported makes it even less likely that a woman saying she was raped is lying.


? The fact that we have no idea how many false rapes there are in comparison to true rapes makes it unlikely we can say whether a rape claim is likely false or true. No one is claiming anyone should have their character attacked. It would just be best to stick as close to a fair trial as possible. Which will not get done if defenses are cut off on an emotional basis.



ikorack
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30 Mar 2011, 7:39 pm

LKL wrote:
ikorack wrote:
LKL wrote:
ikorack wrote:
I question why you are defending an institution which encourages traditional gender roles.

WTF?
Have you been reading anything I've written?
Other readers, do you also have the impression that I have been "defending an institution that encourages traditional gender roles," or have I actually gotten my point across to people other than Ikorack?


Custody laws reward the person who follows the traditional female role with custody, and this does indeed seem to be a law your defending, feel free to correct me. Do you have a problem with my other statements?

Custody laws reward the person who takes care of the children, because that is what is better for the children. The point of feminism is that this is not necessarily a female role.


The child has a right to both parents and both parents can learn to take care of their child, there is no reason to assume that only one parent is capable just because that is how the work was divvied during marriage.



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30 Mar 2011, 7:40 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
@Tea There is no academic study on false rape claims. I can't imagine such a study being easy either, it would rely mostly on the willingness of someone to admit to a crime. Combine that with unreported rapes and it would be damn near impossible to get an honest number,


Yes, I realize that. Claiming legitimate victims should have their character attacked because a small percentage of reported cases are false is rather odd.

The fact that many more cases go unreported makes it even less likely that a woman saying she was raped is lying.


? The fact that we have no idea how many false rapes there are in comparison to true rapes makes it unlikely we can say whether a rape claim is likely false or true. No one is claiming anyone should have their character attacked. It would just be best to stick as close to a fair trial as possible. Which will not get done if defenses are cut off on an emotional basis.


How is it considered a fair trial when the victim is being asked what she wore the night of the alleged assault and what their sexual history was with the accused? Those things are not the least bit relevant in determining whether or not the victim was raped by the accused or not.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 7:44 pm

ikorack wrote:

The child has a right to both parents and both parents can learn to take care of their child, there is no reason to assume that only one parent is capable just because that is how the work was divvied during marriage.


When a couple splits up, what's best for the child/ren involved is what's of the most concern. For some, an even split of custody is best, for others the father being the primary caregiver is what's best.

The point is that children shouldn't automatically go to the mother.


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