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Feminism at its best by gorillas!

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ArrantPariah
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23 Jan 2013, 12:34 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
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No I'm not. She is the one who decides who is entitled, and who isn't. And, she wants to be entitled, too.

what? that makes no sense. of course she should decide who is entitled to decide who has sex with her body, do you think she should not have that right to her body, that a man should decide that for her instead? you are seriously starting to scare me.


I did not say that a man should decide for her who will have the rights to her body. Nothing to be scared of. She has all of the entitlements, including the entitlement to birth control.



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23 Jan 2013, 12:37 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Entitlement in the sense of feeling that you should be supplied with sex is a form of narcissism. Any sense of entitlement (not just with regard to sex) is often not warranted.


If I go to a grocery store, and have the sense of feeling that I should be supplied with food if I pay for it, does that make me a Narcissist

No . . . it doesn't. But if you go into someone's house and expect to be supplied with food, that would be narcissistic. In this sense, I mean narcissism in the sense of not being aware of boundaries; or, of thinking that you are entitled to cross them.



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23 Jan 2013, 12:40 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
No I'm not. She is the one who decides who is entitled, and who isn't. And, she wants to be entitled, too.

what? that makes no sense. of course she should decide who is entitled to decide who has sex with her body, do you think she should not have that right to her body, that a man should decide that for her instead? you are seriously starting to scare me.


I did not say that a man should decide for her who will have the rights to her body. Nothing to be scared of. She has all of the entitlements, including the entitlement to birth control.

Well, you know, women should have access to birth control if they don't want to have kids. It's the ethical thing to do, isn't it?



ArrantPariah
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23 Jan 2013, 12:42 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Entitlement in the sense of feeling that you should be supplied with sex is a form of narcissism. Any sense of entitlement (not just with regard to sex) is often not warranted.


If I go to a grocery store, and have the sense of feeling that I should be supplied with food if I pay for it, does that make me a Narcissist

No . . . it doesn't. But if you go into someone's house and expect to be supplied with food, that would be narcissistic. In this sense, I mean narcissism in the sense of not being aware of boundaries; or, of thinking that you are entitled to cross them.


Of course there are boundaries.

If I were a gorilla, then I wouldn't be entitled to sex unless I successfully chased away the owner of a harem. I certainly wouldn't walk into the group and expect him to share without a fight.

If I were a bonobo or a dolphin, then I might reasonably expect some without a fight.



hyperlexian
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23 Jan 2013, 12:43 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
No I'm not. She is the one who decides who is entitled, and who isn't. And, she wants to be entitled, too.

what? that makes no sense. of course she should decide who is entitled to decide who has sex with her body, do you think she should not have that right to her body, that a man should decide that for her instead? you are seriously starting to scare me.


I did not say that a man should decide for her who will have the rights to her body. Nothing to be scared of. She has all of the entitlements, including the entitlement to birth control.

no, you questioned whether she should have that entitlement - you brought the story into the thread as an example of feminism gone out of control.... as though she was doing something wrong. i still can't wrap my head around which part was supposed to be the bad bit:

-woman wanting to have sex, which also benefits men
-woman choosing which men to have sex with, which also benefits those men
-woman getting birth control***, which also benefits men

***which reduces unwanted pregnancies and lowers abortion rates and welfare rates, which also... benefits men

??? i can't fathom anything bad here


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23 Jan 2013, 12:46 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Entitlement in the sense of feeling that you should be supplied with sex is a form of narcissism. Any sense of entitlement (not just with regard to sex) is often not warranted.


If I go to a grocery store, and have the sense of feeling that I should be supplied with food if I pay for it, does that make me a Narcissist

No . . . it doesn't. But if you go into someone's house and expect to be supplied with food, that would be narcissistic. In this sense, I mean narcissism in the sense of not being aware of boundaries; or, of thinking that you are entitled to cross them.


Of course there are boundaries.

If I were a gorilla, then I wouldn't be entitled to sex unless I successfully chased away the owner of a harem. I certainly wouldn't walk into the group and expect him to share without a fight.

If I were a bonobo or a dolphin, then I might reasonably expect some without a fight.

If you are a dolphin, better be a fast swimmer.



Ann2011
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23 Jan 2013, 2:43 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Of course there are boundaries.

If I were a gorilla, then I wouldn't be entitled to sex unless I successfully chased away the owner of a harem. I certainly wouldn't walk into the group and expect him to share without a fight.

So as a human, what are the requirements for entitlement? Is it competition between men for the right to mate. This could be the motivation for the collection of wealth and seeking power. Or is it building a nest to attract a female? The nicest nest wins.

Just meeting people and hitting it off with them is a good idea, but it's so hard to do. Especially when there are so many social rules in place.



ArrantPariah
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23 Jan 2013, 5:42 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
No I'm not. She is the one who decides who is entitled, and who isn't. And, she wants to be entitled, too.

what? that makes no sense. of course she should decide who is entitled to decide who has sex with her body, do you think she should not have that right to her body, that a man should decide that for her instead? you are seriously starting to scare me.


I did not say that a man should decide for her who will have the rights to her body. Nothing to be scared of. She has all of the entitlements, including the entitlement to birth control.

no, you questioned whether she should have that entitlement -


No I didn't.

hyperlexian wrote:
you brought the story into the thread as an example of feminism gone out of control....


I never stated that this was "an example of feminism gone out of control."

hyperlexian wrote:
as though she was doing something wrong. i still can't wrap my head around which part was supposed to be the bad bit:

-woman wanting to have sex, which also benefits men
-woman choosing which men to have sex with, which also benefits those men
-woman getting birth control***, which also benefits men

***which reduces unwanted pregnancies and lowers abortion rates and welfare rates, which also... benefits men

??? i can't fathom anything bad here


I also never stated that she was doing anything "bad."

I was merely pointing out that she was exercising her entitlement to coitus.

And, she is the one with all of the entitlements, and the one who calls all of the shots. She is the one who establishes the terms and conditions concerning access. She can call "Rape!" whenever she wants.



hyperlexian
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23 Jan 2013, 5:50 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
I recall a lot of noise a few months ago about a college girl at a Catholic university who wanted her birth control pills paid for.

I don't know if she was a Feminist, but it does seem that some Feminists want it both ways: Sex is an Entitlement for them, but not an Entitlement for someone else.

you said this^^^^. going on a birth control pill doesn't equal an entitlement to sex with other people. and she does not take away anyone else's entitlement by having sex, obviously. it is only her own body. she has the choice to prevent pregnancy, that is all. and she is entitled to decide who will/will not have sex with her (though they are also entitled to say yes/no). that's the way it works with being entitled to your own body. but nobody is entitled to sex itself.

Quote:
And, she is the one with all of the entitlements, and the one who calls all of the shots. She is the one who establishes the terms and conditions concerning access. She can call "Rape!" whenever she wants.

why would she call out rape? i thought we were talking about entitlement. considering that most cases of rape are not even reported, it would be odd for you to point out that she has the option to call out "rape!".

you have some strange wording, also. of course she calls all of the shots on her own body, so it is weird you would point it out. it should not be any other way.... right? everyone has that right.


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Last edited by hyperlexian on 23 Jan 2013, 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ArrantPariah
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23 Jan 2013, 5:51 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Of course there are boundaries.

If I were a gorilla, then I wouldn't be entitled to sex unless I successfully chased away the owner of a harem. I certainly wouldn't walk into the group and expect him to share without a fight.

So as a human, what are the requirements for entitlement? Is it competition between men for the right to mate. This could be the motivation for the collection of wealth and seeking power. Or is it building a nest to attract a female? The nicest nest wins.

Just meeting people and hitting it off with them is a good idea, but it's so hard to do. Especially when there are so many social rules in place.


John Lyly wrote:
The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war.



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23 Jan 2013, 5:56 pm

Arrant, just because she chooses who she has sex with does not mean she feels entitled to sex. You don't see her running up on some hapless guy trying to seduce him, do you?



ArrantPariah
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23 Jan 2013, 5:56 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I don't know if she was a Feminist, but it does seem that some Feminists want it both ways: Sex is an Entitlement for them, but not an Entitlement for someone else.

you said this^^^^. you questioned her entitlement to her own body. your words. you also framed it as a feminist thing. i am not making this up - you said it. :/

she does not take away anyone else's entitlement by having sex, obviously. it is only her own body.


I did not question her entitlement to coitus. Only pointing out that "Sex is not an entitlement" is a bit of a hypocritical rallying cry.

hyperlexian wrote:
Quote:
And, she is the one with all of the entitlements, and the one who calls all of the shots. She is the one who establishes the terms and conditions concerning access. She can call "Rape!" whenever she wants.

why would she call out rape? i thought we were talking about entitlement. considering that most cases of rape are not even reported, it would be odd for you to point out that she has the option to call out "rape!".

you have some strange wording, also. of course she calls all of the shots on her own body, so it is weird you would point it out. it should not be any other way.... right? everyone has that right.


I didn't state that she shouldn't have that right.



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23 Jan 2013, 5:58 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Arrant, just because she chooses who she has sex with does not mean she feels entitled to sex. You don't see her running up on some hapless guy trying to seduce him, do you?


I don't know what she is doing, but I think that this could be easily accomplished.



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23 Jan 2013, 5:58 pm

Sex isn't an entitlement because you cannot have it with anyone you want. They have to agree to have it with you. This is the crux of the issue. Mutual agreement. Even for the girl it is not an entitlement because the guy she wants could tell her to easily f off then she would either have to find someone else that does want to be with her or give up.



hyperlexian
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23 Jan 2013, 5:59 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
I don't know if she was a Feminist, but it does seem that some Feminists want it both ways: Sex is an Entitlement for them, but not an Entitlement for someone else.

you said this^^^^. you questioned her entitlement to her own body. your words. you also framed it as a feminist thing. i am not making this up - you said it. :/

she does not take away anyone else's entitlement by having sex, obviously. it is only her own body.


I did not question her entitlement to coitus. Only pointing out that "Sex is not an entitlement" is a bit of a hypocritical rallying cry.

hyperlexian wrote:
Quote:
And, she is the one with all of the entitlements, and the one who calls all of the shots. She is the one who establishes the terms and conditions concerning access. She can call "Rape!" whenever she wants.

why would she call out rape? i thought we were talking about entitlement. considering that most cases of rape are not even reported, it would be odd for you to point out that she has the option to call out "rape!".

you have some strange wording, also. of course she calls all of the shots on her own body, so it is weird you would point it out. it should not be any other way.... right? everyone has that right.


I didn't state that she shouldn't have that right.

i reworded my post. there is nothing hypocritical about every person having agency over their own body. no person has entitlement over any other person. her getting access to the pill doesn't mean she is entitled to have sex with whomever she wants, because those other people have agency over their bodies too.

see? feminism helps everyone!! !!


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23 Jan 2013, 7:05 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Sex isn't an entitlement because you cannot have it with anyone you want. They have to agree to have it with you. This is the crux of the issue. Mutual agreement. Even for the girl it is not an entitlement because the guy she wants could tell her to easily f off then she would either have to find someone else that does want to be with her or give up.
Yep and she does because she love her partner very much she is not required to she does it because she wants to and with his consent as well, she doesnt do it because its a requirment. At least thats how I view sex when with an intimate partner I have strong feelings for and if the partner feels the same way but it isnt a requirment.


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