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New Restrictions on Abortion Have Real World Consequences

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XFilesGeek
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25 Jun 2021, 3:25 pm

magz wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm asexual, so, no. But I also believe consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy.

I think informed consent does include clear picture about pregnancy, STDs, other problematic possibilities if they exist and all planned precaution measures.


That depends. Here in the U.S., some states do their best to repress sexual education.

Also, it's been established that several animals engage in sexual activities for fun and bonding. The purpose of sex isn't always to produce a baby.


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25 Jun 2021, 3:28 pm

magz wrote:
Yes, the actual philosophical question is: when does a fetus become a human?


It doesn't, it's always human, it's a human foetus.
It's a human from the moment the two cells fuse to form the 1st cell of the new human.

It's not a sheep, or a pig, or a brick, or a rocket engine, it's a human.

Foetus is a stage of development, like Embryo, Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult, Geriatric.

So "When does the human infant become a human" makes no sense.
Similarly "When does the human foetus become a human, makes no sense.

If human rights are conferred by virtue of being human, than they are present from conception.



magz
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25 Jun 2021, 3:37 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
That depends. Here in the U.S., some states do their best to repress sexual education.

Also, it's been established that several animals engage in sexual activities for fun and bonding. The purpose of sex isn't always to produce a baby.
Sure it isn't!
But I think thorough sex ed should be a norm so informed consent was even possible.

No sex ed + no contraceptives + no abortions was an adaptation to a world where an average woman had to have 5 children to ensure survival of human populations. That was the medieval reality.

No sex ed + no contraceptives + free abortions was briefly used in Soviet Russia. It wasn't healthy.

I really prefer it in the order
sex ed > contraceptives > decision about abortion.


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XFilesGeek
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25 Jun 2021, 3:38 pm

magz wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
That depends. Here in the U.S., some states do their best to repress sexual education.

Also, it's been established that several animals engage in sexual activities for fun and bonding. The purpose of sex isn't always to produce a baby.
Sure it isn't!
But I think thorough sex ed should be a norm so informed consent was even possible.

No sex ed + no contraceptives + no abortions was an adaptation to a world where an average woman had to have 5 children to ensure survival of human populations. That was the medieval reality.

No sex ed + no contraceptives + free abortions was briefly used in Soviet Russia. It wasn't healthy.

I really prefer it in the order
sex ed > contraceptives > decision about abortion.


Agreed!!


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magz
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25 Jun 2021, 3:39 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
magz wrote:
Yes, the actual philosophical question is: when does a fetus become a human?


It doesn't, it's always human, it's a human foetus.
It's a human from the moment the two cells fuse to form the 1st cell of the new human.

It's not a sheep, or a pig, or a brick, or a rocket engine, it's a human.

Foetus is a stage of development, like Embryo, Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult, Geriatric.

So "When does the human infant become a human" makes no sense.
Similarly "When does the human foetus become a human, makes no sense.

If human rights are conferred by virtue of being human, than they are present from conception.

Is this earliest-development-stage human entitled to use body of another human to survive?


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XFilesGeek
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25 Jun 2021, 3:41 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
magz wrote:
Yes, the actual philosophical question is: when does a fetus become a human?


It doesn't, it's always human, it's a human foetus.
It's a human from the moment the two cells fuse to form the 1st cell of the new human.

It's not a sheep, or a pig, or a brick, or a rocket engine, it's a human.

Foetus is a stage of development, like Embryo, Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult, Geriatric.

So "When does the human infant become a human" makes no sense.
Similarly "When does the human foetus become a human, makes no sense.

If human rights are conferred by virtue of being human, than they are present from conception.


The question is, when does one human's need for survival usurp the right of another human's right to bodily autonomy?


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25 Jun 2021, 3:47 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
magz wrote:
Yes, the actual philosophical question is: when does a fetus become a human?


It doesn't, it's always human, it's a human foetus.
It's a human from the moment the two cells fuse to form the 1st cell of the new human.

It's not a sheep, or a pig, or a brick, or a rocket engine, it's a human.

Foetus is a stage of development, like Embryo, Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult, Geriatric.

So "When does the human infant become a human" makes no sense.
Similarly "When does the human foetus become a human, makes no sense.

If human rights are conferred by virtue of being human, than they are present from conception.


Personhood isn't the same as being human, otherwise the HeLa culture would also be a person because it's most certainly a human, genetically speaking. Personhood is a legal and moral concept, not a biological one.

A ZEF generally isn't considered a person but even if it was the bodily autonomy argument is still relevant. A person has no to right to use another person's flesh against their will either.


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25 Jun 2021, 3:59 pm

magz wrote:
No sex ed + no contraceptives + no abortions was an adaptation to a world where an average woman had to have 5 children to ensure survival of human populations. That was the medieval reality.


Not entirely though. Non-surgical terminations have existed as long as medicine has even if documentation is somewhat sketchy. During periods where there's less tolerance for such practices it's more likely they'd just be less openly discussed rather than vanish.

Rue, blue cohosh, red cedar, silphium, snakeroot, bloodwort, pennyroyal and a host of others are documented (those are just the low-hanging fruit of Eurasian and American examples).

It really seems as though women have always sought to control their reproduction and so the framing that attempts to control it are a recent phenomenon isn't actually reflective of reality.


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25 Jun 2021, 4:02 pm

And unripe pineapples.
It reminds me that rue used to be a symbol of regret... makes sense, doesn't it?


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25 Jun 2021, 4:05 pm

magz wrote:
It reminds me of how rue used to be a symbol of regret...


It's still a synonym. Definitely makes sense.

I love deep-diving into word origins like that, or the potential effects of how words being related might impact how people think about the related factors. Like another example would be to consider the various meanings of the words fair, bright, light, white, right vs. dark, black, swarthy, murky, left, sinister, etc. Indo-European languages are loaded with pairings sorta like those.

The heart symbol is alleged to be derived from silphium.


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25 Jun 2021, 4:20 pm

magz wrote:
Is this earliest-development-stage human entitled to use body of another human to survive?


Human beings are not the solitary creatures you seem to imagine.
Their would be very few human beings who did not depend on other human beings to some degree or other.

If you make dependence your measure of humanity, then you are subhuman to anyone less dependant than you or to anyone upon whom you depend.

But, if one of my close family needed a tissue transplant in order to not die. Say a lobe of lung.
Then if my tissues were compatible with their design, I would not refuse.
Especially if I got the organ back after 9 months.

So I would have to answer yes, the Embryo has such a right, especially since the use is temporary.
Does that answer your question?



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25 Jun 2021, 4:24 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
The question is, when does one human's need for survival usurp the right of another human's right to bodily autonomy?


The loss of bodily autonomy is only partial, and of a temporary duration.
Not something that can be said about the harm inflicted on the foetus by abortion.



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25 Jun 2021, 4:41 pm


50 Percent of 'Forward Thinking' Millennials Planned on Moving

Back in their Parents Homes Before the Pandemic in 2019
And Those Are The College Educated Folks Who Cannot

Even Afford to Live On Their Own; Effective Education For

Family Planning, Contraception, And Yes, If That Doesn't

Work A Choice For 'the Other Option' is No Longer A Question

of Basic Survival;

It IS A Given; Many

Young Folks Cannot

Afford to Have Children

And Are Surely No Where Close

to Handling The Responsibility That

Entails Nurturing All The Way Through

Taking Care of The Whole 'Thing'; When Child

Care And Maternity Leave Is Not Affordable/Available;

And One Parent Working Households While the Other

Parent Takes Care of the Child is Largely A Luxury of the Past...

Yet Again, Humanity is Way out of Balance With the Rest of Nature;

Youth in Japan are Losing Interest in Even Having Sexual Relations At All

Per the 'Biblical Definition' At Least; And of Course Fertility is Down 4 Percent in the U.S.

This Year As It Was Already Falling 2 Percent a Year before the Pandemic; The United

States With 4 Percent of the Global Population Consumes 40 Percent of Humanity's

Resources to Live on Earth; If The Rest of the World Comes Up to 'Our Standard Of Living',

The Whole Nature of Earth is In Big, Bigger 'Human Pandemic Trouble'; Again, 'You' May Feed A Starving

Child With A Fish

Yet A 'Zygote'

Just Won't

Provide Much Nutrition;

As That's Just a Metaphor Where

Priorities of Reality of Surviving Must Come
First; No Matter How Feathered The Nests of Others Are...

It's Like 'Abstinence'; Morals Don't Matter When Reality Comes First And Home...

Keeping Human Population At Bay; Is Morality For All Of Existence on Earth; Yet
Of Course, i See A Bigger Nature God Than One Dude, Or Last Book, or Prophet As Such...

Meh, Nature Is All That Is; Including Us, Subject to Requirements for Balance; Harder or Easier by Our Touch.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/06/06/millennials-move-back-home-college/?sh=68f8d38f638a


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25 Jun 2021, 5:07 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
The question is, when does one human's need for survival usurp the right of another human's right to bodily autonomy?


The loss of bodily autonomy is only partial, and of a temporary duration.
Not something that can be said about the harm inflicted on the foetus by abortion.


That's the inherent problem with being dependent upon flesh one doesn't own. The owner doesn't owe further access no matter why they've chosen to cease providing access.


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XFilesGeek
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25 Jun 2021, 5:09 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
The question is, when does one human's need for survival usurp the right of another human's right to bodily autonomy?


The loss of bodily autonomy is only partial, and of a temporary duration.
Not something that can be said about the harm inflicted on the foetus by abortion.


Pregnancy can wreak long-term physical, psychological, and emotional harm on women.

Legally, no human has any right to use the body of another human for any length of time, no matter how long or short.


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funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 5:12 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Pregnancy can wreak long-term physical, psychological, and emotional harm on women.

Legally, no human has any right to use the body of another human for any length of time, no matter how long or short.


Inb4 her interests are made secondary.
These arguments get predictable after awhile.


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