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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 9:25 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?
Right Libertarian - Abortion violates the right to life
Left Libertarian - The fetus/embyro is not considered a life, so therefore it is up to the mother

Just my rough guess. I don't really think it's as clearly established as conservative and liberal.


how do right libertarians propose to enforce their Ideas on abortion without force?
will we just have enough government to stop abortions and no more?
Since abortion violates the baby's right to live, it initiates force on the baby. It is within the government's role to protect the rights of its citizens, which means protecting the right of the baby to live. Since when was libertarianism about the government having no right to use force at all? :?

Libertarianism is basically about allowing people to do whatever they wish to as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Abortion is considered to harm the baby.



JakobVirgil
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12 Apr 2011, 9:43 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?
Right Libertarian - Abortion violates the right to life
Left Libertarian - The fetus/embyro is not considered a life, so therefore it is up to the mother

Just my rough guess. I don't really think it's as clearly established as conservative and liberal.


how do right libertarians propose to enforce their Ideas on abortion without force?
will we just have enough government to stop abortions and no more?
Since abortion violates the baby's right to live, it initiates force on the baby. It is within the government's role to protect the rights of its citizens, which means protecting the right of the baby to live. Since when was libertarianism about the government having no right to use force at all? :?

Libertarianism is basically about allowing people to do whatever they wish to as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Abortion is considered to harm the baby.


sorry I confused right anarchy and right libertarianism for a second between the two threads.

doing a little secondary research it seems that Ayn Rand was strong defender of abortion right , as is the platform of the U.S. libertarian party. while Ron Paul and his camp are against them.
so maybe not a right-left split.
is there a way to neatly sum up the two sides?


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Master_Pedant
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12 Apr 2011, 9:50 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
sorry I confused right anarchy and right libertarianism for a second between the two threads.

doing a little secondary research it seems that Ayn Rand was strong defender of abortion right , as is the platform of the U.S. libertarian party. while Ron Paul and his camp are against them.
so maybe not a right-left split.
is there a way to neatly sum up the two sides?


Simple, really....

Minarchist capitalists who are trying to win over conservatives (i.e. Libertarian Party, Ron Paul, all mainstream US right-libertarians): Either oppose abortion or are "States' rights" and think states should decide on matters of liberty.

Minarchist capitalists who don't care at all about conservative (i.e. Ayn Rand): Pro-Abortion rights

Anarcho-capitalist: I don't really know the position, but I'd imagine that they support abortion rights.

As for "right anarchy", Ayn Rand wasn't an anarcho-capitalist - she was a minarchist who disliked being called "libertarian".


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12 Apr 2011, 10:01 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
sorry I confused right anarchy and right libertarianism for a second between the two threads.

doing a little secondary research it seems that Ayn Rand was strong defender of abortion right , as is the platform of the U.S. libertarian party. while Ron Paul and his camp are against them.
so maybe not a right-left split.
is there a way to neatly sum up the two sides?


Simple, really....

Minarchist capitalists who are trying to win over conservatives (i.e. Libertarian Party, Ron Paul, all mainstream US right-libertarians): Either oppose abortion or are "States' rights" and think states should decide on matters of liberty.

Minarchist capitalists who don't care at all about conservative (i.e. Ayn Rand): Pro-Abortion rights

Anarcho-capitalist: I don't really know the position, but I'd imagine that they support abortion rights.

As for "right anarchy", Ayn Rand wasn't an anarcho-capitalist - she was a minarchist who disliked being called "libertarian".


Murray Rothbard is a firm supporter of abortion rights so anarcho-capitalist seem to be in Pro-abortion rights camp.
the liberarian party platform is also pro-abortion rights so we shoulddrop them off the first list.


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PM
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12 Apr 2011, 10:09 pm

Not to get off topic here, but I think the argument of Right-Libertarian vs. Libertarian vs. Left-Libertarian deserves its own thread. I'll get on that in a few once I gather some information.


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Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 10:19 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
The right to live trumps the right to choose

Really? I have a "right" to use your kidneys if my own fail?
I'll die otherwise.

AceOfSpades wrote:
and a fetus meets the biological characteristics of life

So did the 9,000 cheeseburgers that were eaten since I started this reply.

AceOfSpades wrote:
I haven't sorted out the brain activity thing since I dunno what frequencies of brain waves manifest at the earliest or what regions of the brain are active, but once again personal responsibility plays a big role in my stance. If you don't wanna experience misery then don't get yourself in that predicament.

Over 90% of abortions take place when THERE IS NO BRAIN. "Personal responsibility" is code for "punishment". You can't actually assert that abortion causes suffering, merely that you're uncomfortable with the idea of penalty-free unprotected sex. If you don't wanna experience misery OPPOSE STATE CONTROLLED REPRODUCTION.


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psychohist
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12 Apr 2011, 10:19 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
doing a little secondary research it seems that Ayn Rand was strong defender of abortion right , as is the platform of the U.S. libertarian party. while Ron Paul and his camp are against them.
so maybe not a right-left split.
is there a way to neatly sum up the two sides?

Some quotes and actions from Ron Paul on abortion here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/tx/Ron_Paul_Abortion.htm

It appears to me that his arguments against abortion are legal arguments, not libertarian philosophical arguments. I would characterize him as "libertarian except on abortion" rather than "having a libertarian argument against abortion".

Note that even if you consider a fetus to be a full fledged person, strict libertarian philosophy still gives the mother the right to remove the fetus. Just as one isn't obligated to donate a kidney to save someone, one isn't obligated to donate blood, brain, and body mass and allow the use of one's uterus to save someone.

The only possibly valid antiabortion argument from a libertarian standpoint would be that by having voluntary sex, one accepts an implied contract with any future fetus to parent it responsibly. This is a difficult argument to defend, though, since the concept of a contract with a potential person who may never actually exist is a bit questionable.



psychohist
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12 Apr 2011, 10:21 pm

PM wrote:
Not to get off topic here, but I think the argument of Right-Libertarian vs. Libertarian vs. Left-Libertarian deserves its own thread.

I don't. The concept of "right libertarians" and "left libertarians" is really just a canard created by antilibertarians to try to argue against libertarian philosophy.



Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 10:22 pm

I think I'm too stupid to grasp the concept of Right-Libertarianism.

As far as this topic and others,
it seems to denote people who simply think the citizenry should be subjugated by the state, as opposed to the federal, government.


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12 Apr 2011, 10:23 pm

psychohist wrote:
PM wrote:
Not to get off topic here, but I think the argument of Right-Libertarian vs. Libertarian vs. Left-Libertarian deserves its own thread.

I don't. The concept of "right libertarians" and "left libertarians" is really just a canard created by antilibertarians to try to argue against libertarian philosophy.


More evidence that you live in an echo chamber hermetically sealed off from reality, especially intellectual history.


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Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 10:25 pm

psychohist wrote:
Note that even if you consider a fetus to be a full fledged person, strict libertarian philosophy still gives the mother the right to remove the fetus. Just as one isn't obligated to donate a kidney to save someone, one isn't obligated to donate blood, brain, and body mass and allow the use of one's uterus to save someone.


I've noticed people are so used to defining the abortion debate in terms of fetal personhood, and life,
they often continue on about it even after it's relevancy is challenged.


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Last edited by Bethie on 12 Apr 2011, 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 10:27 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?
Right Libertarian - Abortion violates the right to life
Left Libertarian - The fetus/embyro is not considered a life, so therefore it is up to the mother



Exhibit A.


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12 Apr 2011, 10:32 pm

Bethie wrote:
I think I'm too stupid to grasp the concept of Right-Libertarianism.

As far as this topic and others,
it seems to denote people who simply think the citizenry should be subjugated by the state, as opposed to the federal, government.


Just think of it as supporting formal self-ownership but not effective self-ownership.


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Bethie
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12 Apr 2011, 10:42 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Bethie wrote:
I think I'm too stupid to grasp the concept of Right-Libertarianism.

As far as this topic and others,
it seems to denote people who simply think the citizenry should be subjugated by the state, as opposed to the federal, government.


Just think of it as supporting formal self-ownership but not effective self-ownership.


:D


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psychohist
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12 Apr 2011, 10:42 pm

Bethie wrote:
I think I'm too stupid to grasp the concept of Right-Libertarianism.

As far as this topic and others,
it seems to denote people who simply think the citizenry should be subjugated by the state, as opposed to the federal, government.

To the extent there's such a thing as a "right libertarian", I'm a "right libertarian", and I very much support complete abortion rights.

However, that doesn't mean I think it should necessarily be handled at the federal level. There are plenty of legal issues that are more appropriately handled at a state or local level.

Bethie wrote:
I've noticed people are so used to defining the abortion debate in terms of fetal personhood, and life,
they often continue on about it even after it's relevancy is challenged.

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?
Right Libertarian - Abortion violates the right to life
Left Libertarian - The fetus/embyro is not considered a life, so therefore it is up to the mother

Exhibit A.

Abortion is a very emotional issue for many people, so they are more likely to cling to their preconceived notions than to apply any rational philosophical analysis to the issue, libertarian or otherwise. Note that neither of AceOfSpade's "libertarian" characterizations is in fact consistent with libertarian philosophy.



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13 Apr 2011, 12:02 am

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
The right to live trumps the right to choose

Really? I have a "right" to use your kidneys if my own fail?
I'll die otherwise.
The right to live is a negative right, meaning people are prohibited from taking your life but aren't obligated to save it.

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
and a fetus meets the biological characteristics of life

So did the 9,000 cheeseburgers that were eaten since I started this reply.
Since when was I a vegetarian? :?

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
I haven't sorted out the brain activity thing since I dunno what frequencies of brain waves manifest at the earliest or what regions of the brain are active, but once again personal responsibility plays a big role in my stance. If you don't wanna experience misery then don't get yourself in that predicament.

Over 90% of abortions take place when THERE IS NO BRAIN. "Personal responsibility" is code for "punishment". You can't actually assert that abortion causes suffering, merely that you're uncomfortable with the idea of penalty-free unprotected sex. If you don't wanna experience misery OPPOSE STATE CONTROLLED REPRODUCTION.
Yep it's hard to swallow if you're biting off more than you can chew. And yes I am uncomfortable with a something for nothing mentality, it's exactly what's degrading society. Some further research has told me that the neo-cortex (which is the most evolved and human part of the brain) starts developing at the third trimester, but I still mostly don't give a s**t since I don't stand for granting people get out of jail free cards whenever they choose to imprison themselves with the strings of long term consequences attached to instant gratification.