Let smokers smoke.

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Tequila
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26 Aug 2011, 6:24 pm

Fnord wrote:

Buncha sadistic butt-suckers, eh?

I'm not saying that beating people up who snitch on people who ignore the smoking ban is right, but their life could be made difficult in other ways.

And in any case, in much of Europe smoking bans there are widely ignored. The UK and Ireland has - I think - the strictest smoking ban laws in Northern Europe (with the exception of Belgium, and even there the police are being extremely mob-handed). Even the smoking ban in Sweden doesn't go as far as the UK one.

There is a total ban on smoking in bars in Cyprus but for obvious reasons the effect there is less severely felt than it is in the UK.

Last edited by Tequila on 26 Aug 2011, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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26 Aug 2011, 6:25 pm

Tequila wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Buncha sadistic butt-suckers, eh?

... and Europeans say that us Yanks are uncivilized, brutish barbarians ...

:roll:

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Tequila
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26 Aug 2011, 6:31 pm

Fnord wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Buncha sadistic butt-suckers, eh?

... and Europeans say that us Yanks are uncivilized, brutish barbarians ...

:roll:

Much of the time these smoking bans were not properly consulted with the public. These bans were never really wanted by the majority: they were just forced on them. So many people just ignore them.

Many countries in Europe - Britain included - do not have real democracy as experienced in the US. Westminster is seen as an alien entity to most in Britain.

Dox47
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26 Aug 2011, 10:20 pm

Vigilans wrote:

There are actually bars here in Montreal where you can smoke indoors. Prime example is "Stogies" which is a "cigar lounge" that also serves drinks. I've been there a few times. So perhaps this doesn't extend to other parts of the world but there are specified places where people can go have a drink and light up and relax. Actually, hehe, when I was a busboy/bar slave we tended to smoke cigarettes in the bar. Most of the time only during staff-only parties or after hours but there are certainly bars that violate the law

My state banned smoking in any business, so legally you can't operate a cigar bar or hookah lounge, and the ones that already existed were forced to close. It was a voter initiative thing, pure tyranny of the majority in action. We actually have "smoke-easies" in Seattle, underground bars where you can drink and smoke, sometimes gamble, just like prohibition days. It's all totally illegal of course, but that doesn't mean you won't see city councilmen and other local politicians and figures at one. The other option is to go to the indian reservation, some of them have started putting cigar bars in their casinos, but there aren't that many around yet.

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Vigilans
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27 Aug 2011, 12:34 pm

That's not right at all. There should be businesses that are specified for smoking. Are those underground bars as seedy as I seem to assume they would be?

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Sweetleaf
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27 Aug 2011, 1:03 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

When I hear smokers complain about having to go outside I think to myself "Man the f**k up"

So you'd be quite happy to have to go outside in the driving, freezing rain every time you wanted a cigarette? You're paying over the odds for this as an experience, remember.

Yep, no problem from me. As I stated I was a chain smoker and I had no problem going out in -25C or worse, blizzards, freezing rain, whatever. "Nut up or shut up" You make the choice to smoke you deal with the consequences. You must be aware smoking causes cancer, which is much worse than a little bit of inclement weather. If you can deal with the almost inevitability of lung problems you can deal with the great outdoors. As a conservative I would expect you to support the notion that a minority (smokers) should not force their choices upon a majority

As for smoker hatred that is a bunch of garbage (like fake coughing or whatever) and I couldn't agree more with you. I still smoke cigars on occasion (enjoyed a lovely Cuban a few days ago actually).

Well it would not be right for the majority to force their choices on the minority either...there has to be compromise, I mean I get not allowing smoking in a lot of public buildings but the fact a bar can not choose to allow smoking is ridiculous. I could understand if the majority of people going to the bar did not smoke and disliked it but if the majority of people who go to that bar smoke it's ridiculous to ban it. And since when does the government own all the bars....why can't whoever owns the bar make that decision.

I know of one bar that allows smoking inside, so if i really wanted to go to a bar and smoke a ciggerette with my drink I would go there.

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27 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

Tequila wrote:

Quite a few pubs here break the law in order to accommodate their customers. So, they might, for instance break the part of the law that says that there must be no more than 49% shelter from the elements. Some pubs ignore the smoking ban altogether because they are places where anyone caught snitching would get found out and dealt with.

lol I kind of figured this post would end the way it did when I started reading it, and well why would someone want to snitch on people for smoking at a pub where most of the customers smoke?

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27 Aug 2011, 1:42 pm

Vigilans wrote:

That's not right at all. There should be businesses that are specified for smoking. Are those underground bars as seedy as I seem to assume they would be?

There are none. As I said, to have any business where people can smoke inside is illegal here - even smoker's clubs. The pubs are quite happy with this state of affairs and laugh at anyone who suggests the smoking ban is much of their problem. Even as they're closing down by their thousands and pubs struggle to survive, they look at you as though you're deranged. Unless the smoking ban is amended or overturned (which is unlikely), they'll continue to die. Many smokers and non-smokers alike have removed their business from pubs and drink at home instead, and a lot of pubs rely on (often mediocre and samey) food and the busyness of the summer months and the good weather in order to keep going.

Like I say, most pubs would not ignore the smoking ban because of the very heavy fines the landlord would incur and also because of agent provocateurs. But in bars run by gangsters, for example, you can imagine that running to the council about something like that wouldn't be a good idea.

Last edited by Tequila on 27 Aug 2011, 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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27 Aug 2011, 1:43 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I know of one bar that allows smoking inside, so if i really wanted to go to a bar and smoke a ciggerette with my drink I would go there.

You're lucky. It isn't an option in Britain or in Ireland. Even in sub-zero temperatures.

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27 Aug 2011, 2:50 pm

Tequila wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

That's not right at all. There should be businesses that are specified for smoking. Are those underground bars as seedy as I seem to assume they would be?

Gangsters... yeah that is a problem. Its not fair that people are forced into dealing with the seedy parts of society.

Mind you I stopped going to pubs/bars/clubs a long time ago as I was tired of spending $9 on a beer (probably hyperbole but sometimes it does get pricy). I'd take drinking at home with my buddies watching the hockey or football games or UFC and bbqing my own steaks, over an expensive bar any day tbh, but it still doesn't change the fact that the situation is unfair to those who do want to frequent establishments

Tequila
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27 Aug 2011, 3:13 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Mind you I stopped going to pubs/bars/clubs a long time ago as I was tired of spending $9 on a beer (probably hyperbole but sometimes it does get pricy).

The price of a pint (568ml; 19.2 US fl. oz.) is around US$4.40 here. The lack of any company one can associate with, the coldness of the staff, the absence of any atmosphere much of the time, plus often the blandness of the beer choices leads to drinking at home. Bottled beers are nearly as good as, or sometimes better than, cask ales these days. A really good cask ale will always be far better than the same beer in bottle but in many cases it's not worth bothering with.

This is the other point that I'd like to make - that bans and denormalisations fracture society and make people more closed and less likely to want to socialise or talk with one another socially.

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I'd take drinking at home with my buddies watching the hockey or football games or UFC and bbqing my own steaks, over an expensive bar any day tbh, but it still doesn't change the fact that the situation is unfair to those who do want to frequent establishments

The anti-alcohol bandwagon is here, and it's loud and clear too. That's what I'm saying - it's not just about smoking; the anti-alcohol zealots want to restrict people being able to have a drink in peace, too.

I suspect we'll see a few non-alcohol pubs opening eventually, Inshallah.

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28 Aug 2011, 1:04 am

Vigilans wrote:

That's not right at all. There should be businesses that are specified for smoking. Are those underground bars as seedy as I seem to assume they would be?

Depends on what you mean by "seedy"... One of the big ones turned out to be a long-term sting operation by the cops, they ended up ensnaring some people for (literally) penny ante gambling and one guy on an ancient weapons charge after their attempt to entrap him into a drug deal fell through. The others are more like apartment parties with a door guy, their is a "suggested donation" per drink to avoid being classed as a business and such, but not much in the way of atmosphere.

Someone had sort of a funny setup with a hookah bar for a while; no one would actually claim to work there, people would just "hang out" there and run the register and help customers. It worked for a few months, but I believe the city eventually shut them down. A high end steakhouse in Tacoma built a completely separate smoking "bubble" for cigars that you needed a membership to go into, state still shut it down, said it "harmed the public's health" even though only one person ever smoked in it. That one person was Sean Combs if I recall.

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28 Aug 2011, 8:48 am

Fnord wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Buncha sadistic butt-suckers, eh?

... and Europeans say that us Yanks are uncivilized, brutish barbarians ...

:roll:

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/041199 ... 9022.shtml

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It's not as bad as that. But we do get our topless sunbathers. Most of them are tourists from Europe, which is known for being immoral. Europeans openly smoke cigarettes; they think nothing of toplessness. You cannot turn around in Europe without seeing a marble statue of a topless ancient Greek or Roman goddess the size of a Budweiser Clydesdale, expressing the ancient artistic concept: ''I cannot find a marble brassiere in my size.''

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