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The US Government Shut-Down - Whom to Blame

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simon_says
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09 Oct 2013, 11:06 pm

eric76 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
ACA is LAW!!


So was prohibition. And it even had a Constitutional Amendment.


There is no popular appetite for repeal and no votes for it. The comparison fails. It's not going anywhere any time soon. Get 60 Senate votes and the Presidency or 67 votes without it. That's the system.



auntblabby
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09 Oct 2013, 11:10 pm

Jacoby wrote:
What does it matter that Obamacare is law? Slavery was law. Jim Crow was law. Prohibition was law. DOMA was law. The War on Drugs is law. Unjust laws have no legitimacy.

it is not an unjust law if it helps 10s of millions of American citizens who now don't have to hang their heads in shame in living in a nation [unlike most of the rest of the civilized world] that leaves their poorer citizens to the elements. mandating that the working class be reduced to disposable cogs left to get sick and die prematurely when it is eminently preventable, is the real failure of legitimacy. it CANNOT just be ALL guns and NO butter, such a hobbsian society would not be worth living in, IMHO. you are welcome to it, however, should your part of the country secede. the non-system pre-ACA is highly immoral, charging those who can least afford it, treble damages when they get sick, via ruinously expensive [and incomplete] ER care. ACA is merely an attempt to add some morality and humanity to our mediocre American system of public medicine/health.



Last edited by auntblabby on 09 Oct 2013, 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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09 Oct 2013, 11:11 pm

simon_says wrote:
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This is a Democrat led shutdown of government. They demand total capitulation by the GOP, no compromises, no negotiations. The Democrats want this shutdown since they think it will be held against the GOP and not them.


Funny. The GOP doesnt want to deal at all. They want their demands met, not negotiation. They've been dodging Obama on a debt deal for years. Because deals require give and take.

The good news is that the Anti-Obamacare crazies are losing. Obamacare is fading from the GOP's radar as enough Republicans come to their senses. They know they can't win on that. So now they have other demands.


What's funny? One side is ready to meet and negotiate, the other is declaring there will be no compromises or negotiation. Give and take doesn't mean we give and you take. The House controls the purse strings, they represent the American people, they have the power to enact change if they want to. They shouldn't pass an increase to the debt ceiling, the buck has the stop somewhere.



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09 Oct 2013, 11:12 pm

eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
ACA is LAW!!


So was prohibition. And it even had a Constitutional Amendment.


And?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The point is that just because something is currently the law does not mean that it will remain the law. That could change real easily.

I suspect that if the next President is a Republican as well as a Republican House and Senate, that law will be gone fairly quickly.

If you really want Health Care reform that will stick, it needs to have enough support of both parties instead of something that was forced upon us by just one party like this was.


But that's the point - Republicans have demonstrated again and again that they oppose expanded healthcare for those in need. I don't foresee the Republicans helping someone else if it means they have to put someone else' needs ahead of their own, even for a smidgen of the budget.
As for a Republican President doing away with the Affordable Care Act - not if there's Democrats in the house and senate drawing breath. He - or she - by that time would have as much chance of overturning social security or medicare.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



auntblabby
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09 Oct 2013, 11:16 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The House controls the purse strings, they represent the American people, they have the power to enact change if they want to. They shouldn't pass an increase to the debt ceiling, the buck has the stop somewhere.

horsepuckey, the TP are representing only their wealthy districts. the TP are calling the shots and the rest of the house are cowardly falling in line. they don't represent me and mine one iota. they don't represent the needs of 10s of millions of people in need of affordable healthcare, the likes which you scorn. the house cannot be allowed to extort the nation and act as a de facto oligarchy in defiance of the plurality of voters who elected Obama and by extension approved obamacare.



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09 Oct 2013, 11:25 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
What does it matter that Obamacare is law? Slavery was law. Jim Crow was law. Prohibition was law. DOMA was law. The War on Drugs is law. Unjust laws have no legitimacy.

it is not an unjust law if it helps 10s of millions of American citizens who now don't have to hang their heads in shame in living in a nation [unlike most of the rest of the civilized world] that leaves their poorer citizens to the elements. mandating that the working class be reduced to disposable cogs left to get sick and die prematurely when it is eminently preventable, is the real failure of legitimacy. it CANNOT just be ALL guns and NO butter, such a hobbsian society would not be worth living in, IMHO. you are welcome to it, however, should your part of the country secede. the non-system pre-ACA is highly immoral, charging those who can least afford it, treble damages when they get sick, via ruinously expensive [and incomplete] ER care. ACA is merely an attempt to add some morality and humanity to our mediocre American system of public medicine/health.


The pre-Obamacare system or whatever you want to call it was the greatest medical system in the history mankind. That's a fact. America leads the world in innovation, my brother would of died when he was born anywhere else in the world including all those wonderful countries that offer "free" healthcare. It wasn't without fault and needed reforms but Obamacare will destroy healthcare America. It's corporatism for big business, it's the Cloward-Piven strategy for the far left.



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09 Oct 2013, 11:31 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The House controls the purse strings, they represent the American people, they have the power to enact change if they want to. They shouldn't pass an increase to the debt ceiling, the buck has the stop somewhere.

horsepuckey, the TP are representing only their wealthy districts. the TP are calling the shots and the rest of the house are cowardly falling in line. they don't represent me and mine one iota. they don't represent the needs of 10s of millions of people in need of affordable healthcare, the likes which you scorn. the house cannot be allowed to extort the nation and act as a de facto oligarchy in defiance of the plurality of voters who elected Obama and by extension approved obamacare.


Like it or not, Obama is NOT the dictator. He is the President. That means that he presides over ONE AND ONLY ONE branch of Government - the Executive Branch. While he has a great deal of influence with Congress and he gets to nominate judges, he does not control them.



auntblabby
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09 Oct 2013, 11:32 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The pre-Obamacare system or whatever you want to call it was the greatest medical system in the history mankind. That's a fact. America leads the world in innovation, my brother would of died when he was born anywhere else in the world including all those wonderful countries that offer "free" healthcare. It wasn't without fault and needed reforms but Obamacare will destroy healthcare America. It's corporatism for big business, it's the Cloward-Piven strategy for the far left.

that is an obscenity. it could NOT have been the greatest if it rationed quality care only to those wealthy enough to afford it, and bankrupted working class folks in the process. it is frankly offensive when you suggest such. the only reforms TP and their sympathizers have demonstrated they can get behind, are those that make it even more punitive to the poor, such as repealing EMTALA and doing away with malpractice tort law. why can't you see that ACA is indeed meeting capitalism and capitalists almost all of the way? you really think that ACA is just as horrible [to righties in any case] as single payer? that tells me you really think pofolk are just disposable, that you don't really want people like me to have health care in the first place, or you have magical illusions of horatio alger foremost in your daily thinking.



simon_says
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09 Oct 2013, 11:32 pm

Jacoby wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
This is a Democrat led shutdown of government. They demand total capitulation by the GOP, no compromises, no negotiations. The Democrats want this shutdown since they think it will be held against the GOP and not them.


Funny. The GOP doesnt want to deal at all. They want their demands met, not negotiation. They've been dodging Obama on a debt deal for years. Because deals require give and take.

The good news is that the Anti-Obamacare crazies are losing. Obamacare is fading from the GOP's radar as enough Republicans come to their senses. They know they can't win on that. So now they have other demands.


What's funny? One side is ready to meet and negotiate, the other is declaring there will be no compromises or negotiation. Give and take doesn't mean we give and you take. The House controls the purse strings, they represent the American people, they have the power to enact change if they want to. They shouldn't pass an increase to the debt ceiling, the buck has the stop somewhere.


I said funny because I'm laughing at your talk radio views. They already spent the money. This is just arguing over whether to pay the bills they voted for. It's silly.

Obama has negotiated with them many times but they won't take any grand bargains thanks to the deranged teabaggers. They are using threats to avoid a negotiation so they don't have to give Obama anything. They are saying "do x or we harm the US". And x can be negotiated as long as it's on a short list of things they want.



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09 Oct 2013, 11:48 pm

Jacoby wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
What does it matter that Obamacare is law? Slavery was law. Jim Crow was law. Prohibition was law. DOMA was law. The War on Drugs is law. Unjust laws have no legitimacy.

it is not an unjust law if it helps 10s of millions of American citizens who now don't have to hang their heads in shame in living in a nation [unlike most of the rest of the civilized world] that leaves their poorer citizens to the elements. mandating that the working class be reduced to disposable cogs left to get sick and die prematurely when it is eminently preventable, is the real failure of legitimacy. it CANNOT just be ALL guns and NO butter, such a hobbsian society would not be worth living in, IMHO. you are welcome to it, however, should your part of the country secede. the non-system pre-ACA is highly immoral, charging those who can least afford it, treble damages when they get sick, via ruinously expensive [and incomplete] ER care. ACA is merely an attempt to add some morality and humanity to our mediocre American system of public medicine/health.


The pre-Obamacare system or whatever you want to call it was the greatest medical system in the history mankind. That's a fact. America leads the world in innovation, my brother would of died when he was born anywhere else in the world including all those wonderful countries that offer "free" healthcare. It wasn't without fault and needed reforms but Obamacare will destroy healthcare America. It's corporatism for big business, it's the Cloward-Piven strategy for the far left.


I'm very happy your brother got the care he needed. The fact remains, though, plenty of Americans without insurance, or who find themselves deserted by their insurance companies, either find medical cures out of reach for lack of financial means, or are financially devastated afterward. I see no reason why we Americans can't have the best of both worlds - the medical innovation that makes us the world leader in that field, and at the same time cares for financially vulnerable Americans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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09 Oct 2013, 11:55 pm

but to the TP and their ilk, us "useless eaters" deserve no healthcare or anything else, not even life itself- I could tell that last part from the grinches in the Tom Tancredo audience who shouted "YEAH!" when the subject of "let them die?" [the uninsured] came up.



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10 Oct 2013, 12:11 am

auntblabby wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The pre-Obamacare system or whatever you want to call it was the greatest medical system in the history mankind. That's a fact. America leads the world in innovation, my brother would of died when he was born anywhere else in the world including all those wonderful countries that offer "free" healthcare. It wasn't without fault and needed reforms but Obamacare will destroy healthcare America. It's corporatism for big business, it's the Cloward-Piven strategy for the far left.

that is an obscenity. it could NOT have been the greatest if it rationed quality care only to those wealthy enough to afford it, and bankrupted working class folks in the process. it is frankly offensive when you suggest such. the only reforms TP and their sympathizers have demonstrated they can get behind, are those that make it even more punitive to the poor, such as repealing EMTALA and doing away with malpractice tort law. why can't you see that ACA is indeed meeting capitalism and capitalists almost all of the way? you really think that ACA is just as horrible [to righties in any case] as single payer? that tells me you really think pofolk are just disposable, that you don't really want people like me to have health care in the first place, or you have magical illusions of horatio alger foremost in your daily thinking.


It wasn't without fault and I won't argue that but I'll stand by what I said. My brother would of died if he were born literally anywhere else in the world, he had open heart surgery shortly after he was born because of a defect to his heart. I don't know if this surprises you but I don't come from wealth either.

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America, it only benefits the pocket books of insurance executives and the far left ideologues who believe that from the ashes they can erect a single payer system.



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10 Oct 2013, 12:24 am

Jacoby wrote:
It wasn't without fault and I won't argue that but I'll stand by what I said. My brother would of died if he were born literally anywhere else in the world, he had open heart surgery shortly after he was born because of a defect to his heart. I don't know if this surprises you but I don't come from wealth either. Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America, it only benefits the pocket books of insurance executives and the far left ideologues who believe that from the ashes they can erect a single payer system.

ok, if you are middle-class instead of upper class, don't you still want the security that comes from having affordable health care? why should the upper-middle and above be the only ones to get such? why should American citizens uniquely in the western world, be left to the elements? what makes americans chopped liver, that Canadians are not? you are opposed to single payer, you are opposed to subsidized private insurance, why can't you support any expansion of care to the working class? you really think comforting the already comfortable [rich folks' tax cuts] is a good use of public resources? how can America be competitive when 10s of millions of its citizens are hamstrung by poor health from not being able to afford exorbitant medical treatment costs which are a uniquely American phenomenon? how can this be a good thing by any stretch of the imagination?



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10 Oct 2013, 12:27 am

Mewtwo, I blame you!



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10 Oct 2013, 12:29 am

The US does not have the best healthcare results across the board. We spend the most and wind up somewhere in 30th place. That's what happens when an entire class cannot afford to get checkups and monitor their own health, let alone get treated when something is found.



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10 Oct 2013, 12:32 am

simon_says wrote:
The US does not have the best healthcare results across the board. We spend the most and wind up somewhere in 30th place. That's what happens when an entire class cannot afford to get checkups and monitor their own health, let alone get treated when something is found.

the USA is a throwaway society, in that it even considers its own citizens in the working class to be disposable, as worthless as the refuse in the dumps. our citizens are a resource, not a throwaway!