Ferguson, MO

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^ So far you haven't responded to any of the hard stuff:

Brown's hand appears to have been shot end-on, which isn't consistent with having his hands up.

There have been threats and attacks directed at a person who *accidentally* gave the police evidence against Brown and Dorian Johnson. (Brown hadn't even been shot yet when the store owner called police to report the robbery.) If the cops did anything close, it would rightly be called witness-intimidation.

The star witness against the officer seems to have been Brown's lookout during the robbery.

The other two witnesses told conflicting stories (which is understandable, but doesn't help your case).

Only one of those three told a story that fits the physical evidence.

Those are the only witnesses who came forward before the autopsy was made public.

Except I have? I started out by accepting that the police man shot Brown, who had already punched him in the face several times, in order to stop him as he moved towards him, probably quickly. You are arguing a straw man.

My "case" is not "innocent black man murdered in cold blood by bloodthirsty cop", it is "black man's death at the hands of a white man treated differently by internet pseudo-intellectuals, the legal establishment and the American* public than a white man's death at the hands of a black man would be in the same circumstances".

*not singling out America by any means, it's just this is a much bigger deal in America than it is here. Doubtless the reaction would be similar if it happened in the UK, though substitute "Asian" in for "black".

I am not blaming anyone; it is psychology.

People see black people destroying a city and think no way would I live among those people. You apparently think that people see black people destroying a city and think "gee ... I want to live among those people".

The same is true when they show "sex offender trail parks" on tv.

Lets go back:



What evidence?



When I last checked, the US still had an individual standard of justice (which we inherited from you Brits). It's not a crime to be part of an unjust statistic, only to act unjustly.

The cartoon has it down.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/2 ... tail=email

/\ I guess someone had to pick up the torch and run with it after AP's demise........

CNN had a video showing the incident itself...apparently someone got smart and held on to the video until things got so much media attention they could sell it for a nifty profit.

The video showed the 'victim' challenging, yelling and daring the officers to shoot him in a very hostile manner from the moment the police car parked on the street.

It shows the two officers getting out of the car and drew their weapons the moment they got off the car. This I found rather odd since the 'victim' was not doing anything violent (like punching someone or waving a knife)... its my understanding the police are supposed to verbally confront the person...putting their hands on their weapons in readyness but not drawing them outright.

CNN was reporting that apparently the owner of the store the 'victim' allegedly robbed had told police the guy was very hostile, apparently armed and that he was known in the area for mental problems. This may (MAY) explain why the officers drew their weapons.

The video shows how the 'victim' starts out being about 20ft away from the police car, sees the cops, starts yelling at them and keeping his hands behind his back/near his pockets....gets up on a small brick wall, yells at them some more... then walks rather fast towards the police keeping his hands near his pockets/out of sight. This all happened in like 8 seconds. The video is frozen by CNN as the 'victim' was like 4ft away from the police car/nearest officer. This is apparently when the police opened fire on him.... but it is not said if it was, CNN didn't show anything else.

So, we know now that the claims from witnesses that the 'victim' had his hands up when the police got out of the car are false.
We don't know what happened after CNN froze the video ... but if the nearest officer did get punched and the guy tried to take his weapon it'd be consistent with the officer's version of the story. However it could very well be he took a swing at the officer who fired in self defense, hit the guy in the arm and thats when the 'victim' may have raised his hands and backed off but a split second later the officers fired in response. This happens in like 2 seconds time.. the reflexive first shot, the guy taking a step back raising hands, the second officer taking a step away from the police car to get LOS and hears the shot ring out and he fires in support.

At that range the result is consistent with almost all accounts and the 6 shots the victim received. Since we don't know how many rounds each officer fired we don't know if most came from the officer that was apparently attacked (a common response is to just fire away until the other guy is down or backed off from you) or not.

What I do find very disturbing, aside from the asinine response of the community to start rioting, is that the federal government once again made supportive statements in favor of the 'victim' without knowing what was happening. Just like in the T. Martin case, just because the victim was black they have to step in and say something. Now they're sending white house staff to attend the funeral.... and we still don't know if the 'victim' DID rob the store or not of if he was mentally unstable or not. Its irresponsible and stupid.

edit: that video was in CNN website late last night under breaking news..now its not available nor can it be found. Hmmm.....

The witness statements provided in support of him, that he was pointing a gun at a black man who had previously been attacking him.

Sure. And the hugely different ways in which black people are treated compared to white people by the legal system are indicative of institutional racism.

Of course every case is different, and it is possible that black people are genuinely very much less likely to actually be defending themselves. It is also possible that the anecdotal evidence to the contrary does not represent the full set of data. However, there is a simpler explanation.

We've already gone over that:

- One witness was a friend and likely criminal accomplice of Brown. (In contrast to the shooting, there's video to back that up.)
- The other two gave conflicting accounts.
- Both had a lawyer present and didn't take unscripted questions until after the private autopsy report was released.
- One later witness took questions, but stumbled when he was asked for details:

http://uneditedpolitics.com/michael-bro ... per-82014/



I agree, but the police shootings that we're discussing aren't a very large part of that.

There were 6,043 whites and 6,470 blacks murdered in 2010 (Black Americans make up <20% of the population.):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl01.xls

Compare that to a total of 387 justifiable homicides by officers (all races):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl14.xls

Furthermore, "Most murders were intraracial, with 84% of white homicide victims murdered by whites, and 93% of black victims murdered by blacks."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ ... s#Homicide

Obviously any biases in adjudication would skew the statistics, but it would have to be a lot to change the basic picture. Black Americans are six times more likely to be murdered (see link above), and 93% of those murders are (allegedly) carried out by other blacks.



Why would a disparity be surprising? One group has more than five times the intraracial murder rate of the other.

The problem that this distracts from is that we screw-over black people economically. Democrats would love to focus on police shootings (which are rare, and a Republican wedge issue) rather than academic injustice (which is common, and a Democratic wedge issue).

Some people had expressed doubts about whether he would have charged at an officer. I haven't claimed that he did, but he would at least point a gun at someone taking his picture.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Even if it's placating the dumb masses so they "behave", that's still being a coward and letting them walk all over you. It makes it harder in the end too, rather than just "standing your ground" (heh).

You don't let dumb people, thugs and bullies walk over you like that.

Crazy racist people everywhere.

Like Michael "Stop and Frisk" Bloomberg, the new face of the gun control movement?

What you should have written is "Crazy partisan hacks everywhere." (Gullible, too.) We have piles of racial injustices in this country that aren't being fixed. While people are enraged about this guy's death, our schools aren't getting any better.

My state gives $4,000 per year to mostly-white college "students" who spend 4-5 years getting drunk while learning only the bare minimum needed to pass. That's $16,000-$20,000 wasted on each individual brat, while poorer kids spend those years stocking shelves and losing most of their earnings to ridiculous rent.

The man in the picture is not Michael Brown. It is Joda Cain, an Oregon murder suspect.

http://www.oregonlive.com/north-of-26/i ... _brow.html
http://www.kctv5.com/story/26310700/kan ... book-posts
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/0 ... 69914.html

I didn't find facebook pages for either of them*, but I did find a news article with that picture from October of 2013, so I'll buy that.

(*other than a posthumous one for Brown)

Either way, screwing around with a gun wouldn't have been as bad as actually hurting someone:

Last edited by NobodyKnows on 25 Aug 2014, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Right. And once again, I am telling you that I am not talking about those witnesses. I am talking about the witness accounts provided by the police, those which support Wilson.

From the Washington Post:



Now if you would please stop arguing a straw man, that would be really great.