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DarthMetaKnight
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29 Aug 2017, 5:20 pm

Misslizard wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Crocodiles will rule the earth afternoon we are gone.They survived the first big extinction so no reason they won't survive the upcoming one.Monitor lizards may survive,and they are intelligent.They will eat the squids and rats.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/ext ... crocs.html
Lizards will again rule the earth.


Modern reptiles have a problem. They are fully quadrupedal. An intelligent animal can only create a civilization if it has nimble hands for crafting tools.

There are plenty of mammals that would survive a mass extinction event just as effectively as a crocodile. They would win the race towards human hands due to their fast reproductive rate ... and because many small mammals already have hands which are humanlike to some degree.

They will evolve nimble hands. :D


Reptiles have existed since the Late Carboniferous. What's taking so long?

Evolution does clearly show us that crocodiles are survivors. The ancestors of crocodiles were likely the largest animals to survive the K-T extinction event ... but they still stayed stupid.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Aug 2017, 5:31 pm

Darwin was the guy who publicized the theory of evolution to his contemporaries, just like Freud was the guy who publicized psychoanalysis.

I never claimed Darwin "pioneered" evolution or that Freud "pioneered" psychology.



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29 Aug 2017, 5:37 pm

Overall, I think that the Cenozoic Era is still in its early stages.

During the Late Cretaceous, most large animals were dinosaurs. Most small animals were either mammals or arthropods. Arthropods cannot grow into giants because their crummy respiratory system won't allow it. That's how mammals became dominant.

Today, we are in a similar situation. Most small animals are either arthropods (which are still under the same limitations) or mammals. If there were another mass extinction, new mammal groups would likely take over. Rodents, lagomorphs, treeshrews, eulipotyphlans, tenrecs, microbats, mustelids, hyraxes and fairy armadillos would likely experience evolutionary radiation. Larger mammals would perish. New aquatic mammals would evolve to replace the pinnipeds and the cetaceans. The age of mammals would still continue.


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DarthMetaKnight
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29 Aug 2017, 5:42 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
It was a speculative future of evolution documentary, but I don't recall it's name.


I don't care what you were watching. After Man: A Zoology of the Future is better. Read it.

http://sivatherium.narod.ru/library/Dixon/main_en.htm


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Misslizard
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29 Aug 2017, 5:45 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Crocodiles will rule the earth afternoon we are gone.They survived the first big extinction so no reason they won't survive the upcoming one.Monitor lizards may survive,and they are intelligent.They will eat the squids and rats.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/ext ... crocs.html
Lizards will again rule the earth.


Modern reptiles have a problem. They are fully quadrupedal. An intelligent animal can only create a civilization if it has nimble hands for crafting tools.

There are plenty of mammals that would survive a mass extinction event just as effectively as a crocodile. They would win the race towards human hands due to their fast reproductive rate ... and because many small mammals already have hands which are humanlike to some degree.

They will evolve nimble hands. :D


Reptiles have existed since the Late Carboniferous. What's taking so long?

Evolution does clearly show us that crocodiles are survivors. The ancestors of crocodiles were likely the largest animals to survive the K-T extinction event ... but they still stayed stupid.

Reptiles are not stupid.New research is proving that.All it will take is one to be born with more adaptable digits.They are also prolific egg layers,so it would be easy for them to populate an area quickly.Most larger mammals which preyed upon nests will be long gone.
http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/07/ ... m-solvers/


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kraftiekortie
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29 Aug 2017, 5:53 pm

Dinosaurs weren't the sharpest tools in the shed.



DarthMetaKnight
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29 Aug 2017, 6:28 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Dinosaurs weren't the sharpest tools in the shed.


They were the sharpest tools in the Triassic shed.

Eutherian mammals later surpassed them. This was one of the many factors which led to their downfall.

Nowadays, reptiles are essentially an evolutionary relic. They don't play a crucial role in most ecosystems. They only occupy a few niches. The land essentially belongs to arthropods, birds and therian mammals at this point. Reptiles, amphibians and monotremes only exist because therian mammals haven't figured out how to wipe them out yet.

Reptiles have definitely been in decline ever since the mammals came around. Mammals are just better.

Face it scaleheads! You favorite vertebrate class is just an evolutionary relic. Reptiles are just primitive amniotes! You had your glory day. It isn't coming back.

The past belonged to reptiles. The present belongs to humans. The future belongs to rodents. That's basically a fact.
Deal with it. 8)

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LoveNotHate
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29 Aug 2017, 6:31 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Meistersinger wrote:
Ya know, what's the point of this topic? It has wandered so far off topic it's it funny. Both sides have dug in to their opinions, and they're likely not to change.

After calling this discussion for the p!ssing match it has devolved to, I'm just going to back out, and ignore this topic.


That's just it. Nobody is digging their heels in on the original topic because the original topic was abandoned long ago.

LNH kinda hijacked the thread, and took into a different debate. From "Creation vs evolution" to....

Well LNH is saying one thing (which may, or may not, have anything to do with "evolution vs creation"), and everyone else is trying figure out just WTF she is talking about. :lol:

The topic is about deterministic evolution.

I posted a video of "quantum biology" professors that explicitly say what you science teach taught you about biological systems is wrong; biology appears to be probabilistic, not deterministic.

It's pretty clear.


Wrong. That was never the subject of this thread.

The video challenges the "determinism" in heredity generation to generation. Not about evolution (gradual change over time over the eons).

No one on this thread (nor anyone anywhere ASFAIK) says "evolution is deterministic".

Darwinism tells us straight up that causality is what's happening.

He just made that up.

That's why in the video, the professor says, "... it's not so understood, as your science teacher led you to believe".

It might be more complicated.

It might not be casualty, but non-casual, randomness.

Thus, the human DNA might of randomlly appeared without the evolutionary chain.

Because of non-casualty.


You were misusing the word "determinism".

Causality is not the same thing as "determinism".

Evolution is based on cause and effect but not outright derterminism.

But you're saying that there isn't even any causation.

That on the surface of the moon were there are no living things at all, not even microbes, much less primate mammals for humans to evolve from in gradual evolutionary way-[youtube] the whole human genome could have just spontaneously popped into existence. [/youtube]The whole human DNA library could have just appeared on the surface of the moon. Or that's what you seem to be saying. That's a very interesting hypothesis.

Determism:
the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

Indeterminism
the doctrine that not all events are wholly determined by antecedent causes.

Do you get it now?

Darwin taught that biology (evolution) is deterministic, not indeterministic.

Quantum biology -- borrowing from quantum indeterminacy -- suggests biology is indeterministic.

Indeterminism means the human DNA may not have antecedent causes. It might have popped into existence based on non-antecedent cause.



mikeman7918
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29 Aug 2017, 6:38 pm

Great, now you just need to find a way to measure how deterministic the universe is and you will have something resembling an argument. It still has the major problem that the probability of DNA randomly assembling into the human genome without any kind of natural selection process is so stupidly absurdly unlikely that it could be considered impossible but at least it would be an improvement on your current argument.


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LoveNotHate
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29 Aug 2017, 6:46 pm

mikeman7918 wrote:
Great, now you just need to find a way to measure how deterministic the universe is and you will have something resembling an argument. It still has the major problem that the probability of DNA randomly assembling into the human genome without any kind of natural selection process is so stupidly absurdly unlikely that it could be considered impossible but at least it would be an improvement on your current argument.

I cited university quantum biology professors.

That's what the scientific research suggests, particularly, they cite photosynthesis with respect to "quantum tunneling" appears to show biological indeterminism.

Of course, what do they know, they're only science professors doing research, and you're some random person on the internet, who has a history making grossly incorrect statements about physics.



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29 Aug 2017, 6:54 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Dinosaurs weren't the sharpest tools in the shed.


They were the sharpest tools in the Triassic shed.

Eutherian mammals later surpassed them. This was one of the many factors which led to their downfall.

Nowadays, reptiles are essentially an evolutionary relic. They don't play a crucial role in most ecosystems. They only occupy a few niches. The land essentially belongs to arthropods, birds and therian mammals at this point. Reptiles, amphibians and monotremes only exist because therian mammals haven't figured out how to wipe them out yet.

Reptiles have definitely been in decline ever since the mammals came around. Mammals are just better.

Face it scaleheads! You favorite vertebrate class is just an evolutionary relic. Reptiles are just primitive amniotes! You had your glory day. It isn't coming back.

The past belonged to reptiles. The present belongs to humans. The future belongs to rodents. That's basically a fact.
Deal with it. 8)

Image

Reptiles and amphibians are crucial to many ecosystems.They keep rodents from eating food crops,they also help prevent tick borne illness by eating the rodents that spread Lyme disease.They are also an impotatant indicator species.Amphibian decline in polluted water.If you eliminated all the snakes in the world there would be mass starvation,rodents would consume most of the grain grown by humans.
Reptiles rule,mammals drool.
http://sciencing.com/importance-reptile ... 87593.html


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DarthMetaKnight
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29 Aug 2017, 7:18 pm

It's too bad non-mammalian synapsids are extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid

They left one Hell of a fossil record ... and now they're gone. :(


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Kraichgauer
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29 Aug 2017, 7:33 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
It's too bad non-mammalian synapsids are extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid

They left one Hell of a fossil record ... and now they're gone. :(


I've often mused over the possibility that the platypus might be a late echo of their kind.


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29 Aug 2017, 7:40 pm

FACT: Male mice sing to attract mates. Most people don't know this because the songs are too high-pitched for human beings to hear.

GAWWWWWWWWWW

Mice are smarter than you think. 8)

What if mice were larger?


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naturalplastic
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29 Aug 2017, 7:41 pm

The synapsids dominated for about fifty million years. Those critters with the sails on their backs came first. Basically solar panels. But later they found ways to achieve endothermy (warm bloodedness) without the external solar panels. They became the Mammal-like reptiles. Some were as big as cows.

Then the climate got hotter and more swamplike. And the diapsid branch of the Reptile took over:the lizards snakes, and dinosaurs. They drove the mammal-like reptiles to extinction. But a few mammal-like reptiles were pushed over the line to become specialized for (a)miniaturization, and (b) for living at night. Both ways to avoid being eaten by dinosaurs. These became the true mammals. The true mammals lived under the feet of dinosaurs for 200 million years. But non were much bigger (or much different) than the hedgehogs and shrews of today.

Then the asteroid hit at 63 million years ago. Wiped out the dinosaurs. And the mammals took over the planet.

But in the middle of the 200 million year epoch when dinosaurs ruled, one type of dinosaurs also became specialized for miniaturization, living in trees, and for endothermy (with insulatinog modified scales -that became feathers). And became the birds. The birds also surved the demise of the bigger nonavian dinosaurs and have more living species than do the mammals even.



DarthMetaKnight
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29 Aug 2017, 9:24 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
It's too bad non-mammalian synapsids are extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid

They left one Hell of a fossil record ... and now they're gone. :(


I've often mused over the possibility that the platypus might be a late echo of their kind.


Well, monotremes do retain some primitive traits that therian mammals have lost, such as the ability to lay eggs.


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