Whats with the leftwing bent of Wrongplanet?

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Pug
Deinonychus

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10 Aug 2008, 12:52 am

Johnnie wrote:

I'm here, the forum is mostly school kids who aren't victims of taxes yet.

Right wings are mostly frustrated elders, too much suffering from mind problems to see taxes are needed to keep the country going.

I'm called very left winged. I don't see why. And indeed, when explaining the why of me having a certain opinion, a lot of right wingers agree on my points. But it seems to be a dirty word, left winged. It's a pity, that opinions are influenced so much by feelings instead of intellect.

dongiovanni
Pileated woodpecker

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10 Aug 2008, 1:07 am

Pug wrote:

Johnnie wrote:

I'm here, the forum is mostly school kids who aren't victims of taxes yet.

lol yeah.

My friend once made a proposition that, if he were elected president, he would address the people and tell them that they either need to vote for sufficient taxation to make the government fiscally viable, or he would have the U.S. declare bankruptcy and leave the populace to pick up the pieces. He (obviously) wasn't serious, but I lol'd hardcore.

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"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"

I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything.

nominalist
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10 Aug 2008, 1:40 am

dongiovanni wrote:

What kind of "ite" are you? A Trotskyite, Schachtmanite, Marcyite, Stalactite?

I was a Trotskyite a long time ago. I became disillusioned with Trotskyism at about the same time as I learned that American neoconservatism has Trotskyite (and Platonic) roots. These days, I favor the collectivization of national and transnational corporations, of local utilities, of medicine, housing, and law, and of all aspects of infrastructure currently in private hands.

I have no problem with private ownership of small local companies. However, they should, in my view, be carefully monitored by workers protection boards who have the right to seize those companies for improprieties.

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Lucid
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10 Aug 2008, 5:09 pm

CRACK wrote:

I am a Moderate leaning towards conservative

The only issues I am truly liberal about are Abortion and Gay Marriage, and nothing will change that. I am Conservative on most other things.

Join the club.

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Apatura
Veteran
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10 Aug 2008, 5:23 pm

Most message boards have a leftwing bent, unless they are specifically conservative boards. But you know what's strange? The extreme left and the extreme right end up sharing common ground. The extremes on both sides have a "beat the system" mentality.

I'm a moderate/ independent. I'm conservative on some things and liberal on others.

Aalto
Deinonychus

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10 Aug 2008, 9:29 pm

I am a liberal socialist.

Can't really think of anything else to say, but there you go. :wink:

dongiovanni
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13 Aug 2008, 9:42 am

nominalist wrote:

dongiovanni wrote:

What kind of "ite" are you? A Trotskyite, Schachtmanite, Marcyite, Stalactite?

I generally support Worker's World (I'm not formally supporting them), which call themselves Marx-Leninist, but are generally Trots. I don't know how much you know about us damn Marcyites, so inquire if interested.

_________________
"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"

I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything.

nominalist
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13 Aug 2008, 8:06 pm

dongiovanni wrote:

I never saw the term "Marcyite" used before. What does it refer to?

dongiovanni
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18 Aug 2008, 12:23 am

nominalist wrote:

dongiovanni wrote:

I never saw the term "Marcyite" used before. What does it refer to?

Sam Marcy led a split from the Socialist Workers Party, who (in his opinion) used Trotskyism as an excuse not to support any socialist countries. Sam Marcy developed a theory that he called Global Class War, which states that there are two poles of power in international politics: socialism and imperialism. Basically, Marcyites always call socialist countries (former U.S.S.R., Cuba, Venezuela, the non-capitalist sector of China) "socialist" instead of "workers' states", "deformed workers' states", etc. They split when the Hungarians revolted against the U.S.S.R. The SWP said that it was a righteous revolution of the workers whereas the Marcyites said that it was a counter-revolution against socialism. Basically, if the west is against someone, we figure there is probably a good reason for socialists to support it and if the west supports someone, we figure there is good reason to be sceptical. We still criticise socialist countries from the left, always promoting reforms to make it more socialist/democratic, but we never say that western intervention is the answer because that will always be tainted by imperialism.

As my one friend put it:

Quote:

The so-called “Trotskyist Movement” in the U.S. has two policies:

1. They are for revolution, until it happens, then it is immediately declared “Stalinist”
2. They are against counter-revolution, until it happens, then it is immediately declared a “righteous workers revolt”, “political revolution” or whatever terms they use.

_________________
"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"

I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything.

nominalist
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18 Aug 2008, 12:35 am

Marcy sounds interesting, but, to me, the ideas you referred to are more partisan than substantive. From your description, Marcy appears to have been more reactive (West or anti-West) than proactive (challenging the oppression of workers no matter where it is found). The emphasis strikes me as essentialistic or reifying.

dongiovanni
Pileated woodpecker

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19 Aug 2008, 12:08 am

nominalist wrote:

The concept is that it's best for workers everywhere to support the most deformed socialist states when they are faced with imperialism. That among other Trotskyist ideas (transitional demands, etc.)

_________________
"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"

I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything.

nominalist
Supporting Member

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19 Aug 2008, 12:16 am

dongiovanni wrote:

The concept is that it's best for workers everywhere to support the most deformed socialist states when they are faced with imperialism. That among other Trotskyist ideas (transitional demands, etc.)

I suppose I agree with Trotsky on this one. He stated that the former Soviet Union was a state capitalist, not a socialist, country. Clearly, the USSR was as imperialist as the US.

Dogbrain
Toucan
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19 Aug 2008, 7:33 am

nominalist wrote:

dongiovanni wrote:

The concept is that it's best for workers everywhere to support the most deformed socialist states when they are faced with imperialism. That among other Trotskyist ideas (transitional demands, etc.)

I suppose I agree with Trotsky on this one. He stated that the former Soviet Union was a state capitalist, not a socialist, country. Clearly, the USSR was as imperialist as the US.

In other words--they just adhere to NO TRUE SCOTSMAN--why do political dogmatics adore using that particular fallacy?

slowmutant
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19 Aug 2008, 8:27 am

If you're a Trotskyite, does it give you the trots?

nominalist
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19 Aug 2008, 2:44 pm

Dogbrain wrote:

In other words--they just adhere to NO TRUE SCOTSMAN--why do political dogmatics adore using that particular fallacy?

No, the issue was that Trotsky was using Marx's definition of socialism, not Stalin's. The former Soviet Union was not a socialist country (a dictatorship of the proletariat) given the definitions of Marx. It was a plutocracy.

Dogbrain
Toucan
Toucan

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19 Aug 2008, 3:47 pm

nominalist wrote:

Dogbrain wrote:

In other words--they just adhere to NO TRUE SCOTSMAN--why do political dogmatics adore using that particular fallacy?

It was a dictatorship, wherein the state had thoroughly SOCIALIZED the economy. Socialism is, after all, control of the economy by the government. You can't have it both ways and claim that when it turns out badly it wasn't really socialism.

I find it funny that, whenever the only avowedly communist countries get brought up in conversation, the leftists fall all over themselves to somehow prove that the only places that have tried Marx's systems have turned out as they turned out.

Marxism would be wonderful if we were all saints. We're not. Every attempt to give "all power to the people" will inevitably be subverted, not by the people at the forefront of the attempt, but by their assistants, secretaries, flunkies, and other apparatchiks that follow behind the revolutionary leaders.

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